Partying vs Soloing, guilds

[solar]

Not sure in which subforum to post this, since it contains ideas, guild-related crap, hints for newbies and something general.

One thing has been bugging me for a while, and I thought I'd just bring it up. I'm not sure how to express what exactly my feeling is, but:

Partying in Icesus is something that seems 'shitty' to me.

In a proper reinc, I can usually make out a better exp/min solorate than in a party - if I can get one these days at all - just like if other people had noticed the same thing and proceeded to solo: For greater exp and money gain.

I'm not saying that soloing should be downtuned (kravensong should!/conversion already did that to melee guilds), but that partying should be made a lot more appealing (and rewarding) than it is now. Sure, there are some nifty combos out there that do that ~80k/min rate with 3man, possibly, but well, they know their stuff.

I did also notice one another thing when I was trying to come up with good 3man partyexp guildcomboes, and that was that some guilds are lacking in 'party (only)' featurecontent. While this may be remedied with the use of secondary guilds, there are still guilds out there that could use face lifts regarding partying.

One such a guild is this Army guild: The partycontent they have seems very small: They have a few orders, but they need to be either the party leader/vice to use them, and even then they may have their combat blocked for a few rounds after issuing the order. They also have military tactics, which are not that party-oriented now that one takes a closer look: The only tactic that directly affects partymember performance that the light infantry gets, is the relentless assault, which gives extra strike maneuvers to fellow army members.
Heavy infantry, on the other hand, get that tactic, and in addition 'shield wall' (which actually is nice party-feature) and 'protect the weaklings' which are closer to providing a real 'combo' effect that they cannot really benefit from in solo. The 3rd party-only feature of the army is the battle valour effect, but it only works with other main guild Armies, as far as I know.
Sometimes strike, when used with a mode, does have party potential, since 'to wound' works pretty well with archers (even though the bodypart hit will most likely not be the head/neck), and 'to stun' can break spells, even though the duration of the stun is very short to hinder the mob's real melee.

(BTW, I'm sorry that these paragraphs turn out to be a pain in the ass to read through. Trust me, they are just as painful to write and re-read for mistakes etc. ":D")

And shouldn't army really be about 'organized squads' working as a team? Seems like there is a lot of potential for a facelift in there. Right now it is just a guild for players with enough exp to max skills, and for newbies to get familiar with the game. What if the (vice) party leader would get extra 'leader' combat momentums that they can type that will make a party member do something spectacular, fancy and flashing? Like 'You see a ball of fire being cast soon at Optimus Prime' -> 'use leadership' -> 'Optimus Prime hears your warning and prepares himself for the incoming spell' ->'Optimus Prime ducks just in time, avoiding some of the damage/blocks the spell with his shield' etc. Now that feature would be of use, promote active playing and partying! Army could use their battle orders to affect the whole party, like 'take cover from the area spell', 'find your second wind' while having these momentum-like new stuff to affect single members.

Let's take a look at some other guild.

Rangers have party-related content: Good berries, guided aim, restoring warmth, poison/healing salves/powders, hold animal, doublecross/wilderness lore specials, faerie fire. Even though these listed features work well with soloing, they also provide a great potential (other than 'I deal damage and hope to kill the mob fast so that he cannot hurt my friends') for use in parties with other offs: The ideal situation would be that the good berry is just enough (or more than enough) healing power when the mobs are unable to fight back due to stunning effects from powders (which the ranger shares with the other tanks) or combat blocking specials. And the regen goes faster with epfires <3.

Evasive combat methods also make it possible for even a low level ranger to perform nicely with more experienced partymembers, and with archery they can fit two roles in a party: A melee offtank and a backrow blaster.

Gaah, it takes so much space to try explaining my point, just bear with me.

I'd say that with these features in mind, the ranger is a lot more likely to get a party these days, or earn its place in one.

To make partying more appealing, there should be more 'I did something, so my partymembers can benefit from it' content in the current guilds, like adding a 'strike to feint' for the army (or really any tanking guild that feinting would fit into: Maybe gaesati and shadowdancers) that, when succesful, would let the other two tanks hit with their own maneuvers instead of the soldier hitting with his own: A feature that would require a party (1 or two other tanks) to be of use, would be of more use with other disciplined army fighters (due to battle valor: one strike becomes two: twice the chance for it to happen, faster mastery gain from more maneuvers etc).

Water priests, caster psionicists and templars have support abilities, which is exactly the kind that is useful in parties (even mages get mirror image, which may be of use when all the healers are soloing with kravensongs :D), but some guilds are lacking. My feel is that each guild should contain features that really unleash their potential when used in a party, so that each of them can complement to the party rate that mixed-guild party they may find themselves in.

Also, we really should implement some kind of 'party exp' booster feature to fight the 'soloexp demon' and ~5-20% 'who unidle, who unidle partying' ratio of Icesus. For a game with a multiplayer support, a lot of the players seem to be playing a single-player game most of the time! I have proposed (in some other thread) that such a booster would work wonders if it would add a fixed bonus to 'party shares'-percentages, regardless of total worth, but with regard to the amount of unidle partymembers who are in the room when the mob dies.

Argh, there's a thunderstorm raging outside. Better just post this now and wait for the discussion to start, then partake in it. :)

[osma]

Minor added point to rangers/archers as party: When archers have a tank to hide behind (rather then hours of sneak/shoot) they get point blank shot. This works as a low power crit, and happens more often with more tanks, tanks with defensive combat maneuvers (or whatever it is called), and with the archer having more offensive combat maneuvers. A ranger, who can train ocm reasonably high, or any offtank archer, when pared with 3 deftanks, can point blank about 50-75% of the time, making each strike hurt a lot more then usual. Add in the new wound/damage system, which hurts quite a bit even if in the leg or something, and you can really deal out massive damage per shot. Not really something that is as obvious a party skill as evasive combat, but something that does help quite a bit when partying.

[allanon]

There is a certain line where soloing starts to lose its exp appeal compared to a party, though this probably depends a lot on guilds...even with a pretty modest rate, party is such a more fun, safe, and easy way to exp compared to hours or days of solo sniping. But I think the biggest problem is just finding that party in the first place, no matter what level you are. I don't know how bad the "soloexp demon" is...it just seems like few people want parties these days, and those that do either want something else or are way too high/low level for p shares.

Money on the other hand...well, it's hard to match solo money making powers unless you get into a knowledgeable party which can actually focus on cash over xp, for the simple fact that money is split exactly evenly instead of by party shares (deposit all to party etc), leaders and vice leaders don't get a "leadership money bonus", and even if you got something nice like glowing fs fp bp or other serious eq, you would probably "p dice" it away. Because of all this, unless you are doing real high-end eq where stuff might sell for hundreds of thousands or millions, it just isn't worth the time and effort compared to soloing some good cash mobs. That's how it seems to me at least. Finally, trash-hauling is not a party activity... :\

I think there's one other thing too - "3 man 80k rate parties really know what they're doing" - I get the feeling that not too many players actually know what they are doing when they party. Except for "highbies" (50, 60, 70+? not sure exact definition) who have played a lot, partied a lot, gained experience as to how to lead parties and what areas to go...that sort of knowledge seems to be rarer the lower levels you go. It is understandable. But also I think that since many players are just so used to solo, they don't want to try to learn to party. And the only way to gain such important knowledge is to actually try it - lead parties, learn the areas. It could be that there must be better incentives to party, or maybe there should be more encouragement to exploration...Downtune to soloing guilds (except kravensong, maybe) is probably not the right way to attack the problem. I don't know...maybe some new friendship event from Pthuule/Zrammas which rewards partying, or something...

[yoz]

I dont give courtesies often. But so far Solar seems to be the only one who knows what he is talking about in this topic. 99% of the rest is just clueless bullshit!

[allanon]

Thank you Yoz!

[brich]

I'ld say alot but I must pinpoint a few stickies which everyone should agree with (their pretty general facts but havent been stated):
1. The first and foremost hinderance to geting a party is the huge amount of ******** (insert creeps, arsheholes, idiots, wiseguys etc, basicly something you dont like to have arround when having fun). Many people in Icesus just dont get along. For example:
"But so far Solar seems to be the only one who knows what he is talking about in this topic. 99% of the rest is just clueless bullshit!"
I wouldnt want to party with such and arrogant pr*ck, would you?

2. Party gives safety in numbers, "whorty opponent" exp bonuses and so forth. Parties haven't been relying on guild abilities designed for them. To illustrate: so far it has been stated water priests, coven and the new wound damage from archers are great for parties but those things werent there few years ago and there were way more parties going on.

3. One of the greatest "party guilds" were the templars, I could even say they were just as party oriented as air priests. For example one of their main masteries is gained from partying and they have 4 masteries. Templars got downtuned to uselesness ...no more templars out there rounding up people. My point is changes made to some old guilds really damaged party creation stream.

So, in brief what I wanted to say: new or better party feats arent needed and wouldnt make people party more as the causes for the current state in PvP are located elsewhere.

P.S. From my point of view, making new stuff for parties or downtuning solo abilities would only serve the purposes of those who party allready anyway. I sense conspiracy!

[yoz]

I'ld say alot but I must pinpoint a few stickies which everyone should agree with (their pretty general facts but havent been stated):
1. The first and foremost hinderance to geting a party is the huge amount of ******** (insert creeps, arsheholes, idiots, wiseguys etc, basicly something you dont like to have arround when having fun). Many people in Icesus just dont get along. For example:
"But so far Solar seems to be the only one who knows what he is talking about in this topic. 99% of the rest is just clueless bullshit!"
I wouldnt want to party with such and arrogant pr*ck, would you?

You break my heart.

2. Party gives safety in numbers, "whorty opponent" exp bonuses and so forth. Parties haven't been relying on guild abilities designed for them. To illustrate: so far it has been stated water priests, coven and the new wound damage from archers are great for parties but those things werent there few years ago and there were way more parties going on.

Im afraid to burst your bubble but covens aint doing any better than they used to they still get drained too fast and the damage output isnt good for exping. For eq it is decent, and maybe when you get all the mastery levels they might be in par with some crappy offguild when exping!

Archers with wound damage are good if you are keen to shit rate (not to mention that 200meg and ~1.5g ranger archers do pretty much the same rates because the damage just doesent go up enough). They did a lot better earlier.

Waterpriests, well. They are what they have always been, metal jars with very good damageoutput and buffs.

3. One of the greatest "party guilds" were the templars, I could even say they were just as party oriented as air priests. For example one of their main masteries is gained from partying and they have 4 masteries. Templars got downtuned to uselesness ...no more templars out there rounding up people. My point is changes made to some old guilds really damaged party creation stream.

Deftemplars are still good with militia levels. Offtemplars are still the only ones with real damagetypes, tho i gotta agree that their damage output still seems bit lame. Even loffie is now struggling with that.
Templar archers are better archers when doing eq than any others.

So, in brief what I wanted to say: new or better party feats arent needed and wouldnt make people party more as the causes for the current state in PvP are located elsewhere

Err, wat. Pvp, where?

P.S. From my point of view, making new stuff for parties or downtuning solo abilities would only serve the purposes of those who party allready anyway. I sense conspiracy!

Well currently most of the players who played off succesfully are playing rangers for easy/good soloexp. (chitines are pure awesome) and offs aren't really needed for anything.

Maybe actually making the maneuvers do damage or making stunned monsters take more damage could give offs some edge for parties. (stunning militias, templars, rangers) This coulr prolly act as a valuable debuff.

Anyways.
My opinion in a nutshell:

The game itself is now boring as hell.

[solar]

1. The first and foremost hinderance to geting a party is the huge amount of ******** (insert creeps, arsheholes, idiots, wiseguys etc, basicly something you dont like to have arround when having fun). Many people in Icesus just dont get along.

Yep. It can be a pain to get a party if you don't have this resource called '(rl-)friends'. One can mostly keep track of in what kind of reincs your friends are, and if they are worth partying with, or even willing. >:)

And they can usually stand you.

2. Party gives safety in numbers, "whorty opponent" exp bonuses and so forth. Parties haven't been relying on guild abilities designed for them. To illustrate: so far it has been stated water priests, coven and the new wound damage from archers are great for parties but those things werent there few years ago and there were way more parties going on.

And sometimes these abilities just happen to overlap, making armydefs less wanted than water_priests/preceptors in exp grinding, since, well, the soldier just stands there. While templar defs of water/fire elements and the water_priests can speed up regens significantly, and deal damage in addition to deffing too.

Safety in numbers is safety as long as the leader doesn't have wooden hands. Clandestinely drunken leader can suddenly forget what the exit from hydra was during fleeing and get the whole party wiped (it really happens, just like brainfart that makes you type partymember's name as the target of your large ball). Front rower who forgets to turn wimpy off can get the backrow killed etc. Soloing suddenly seems a safe option, doesn't it? As long as one sticks to mobs/areas that are familiar, at least. If something goes wrong, who's to blame but oneself?

3. One of the greatest "party guilds" were the templars, I could even say they were just as party oriented as air priests. For example one of their main masteries is gained from partying and they have 4 masteries. Templars got downtuned to uselesness ...no more templars out there rounding up people. My point is changes made to some old guilds really damaged party creation stream.

Templar masteries are obsolete. Only piety and insanely high honour seem to do anything. And other guilds don't need that 2 years of active playing to get their maneuver to do a fancy special (beginning from the 3rd BoJ special, ofc). Hopefully templars may be on the rise, since the conversion re-introduced old races to their ranks! Too bad the chance for them gaining love is slim, since Galiere seems to be more on the absent side. Templars are (still) better offs than the army, despite the nightly beatings with the tunepole. Especially after the resist tune and melee damage downtune, Iotg and elemental tools are now sexier than ever.

So, in brief what I wanted to say: new or better party feats arent needed and wouldnt make people party more as the causes for the current state in PvP are located elsewhere.

Opinion noted. This unit disagrees.

If these elsewhere problems were fixed, then sure, these new features weren't needed. It'd just be sad to check 'who guild share' if some guilds were not given love.

P.S. From my point of view, making new stuff for parties or downtuning solo abilities would only serve the purposes of those who party allready anyway. I sense conspiracy!

I see no harm in more fruitful partying, we just need more areas to support them (give us wildside(tm)!). I also wouldn't want soloing to be 'downtuned', but the harsh truth is that most players solo - either because it is more profitable, or because they cannot get (into) a party, and that seems wrong.

Check 'who partying unidle' and 'who unidle' and see it with your own eyes. Maybe they're waiting for a leader to pick them up, maybe not. Making partying more appealing will make partyleading more appealing as well. Sharing the money/df loot is still voluntary, though. Some leaders stick to their 'noshares' policy, to make partying more valid option to them than soloing.

New stuff to fix inadequities in old guilds, to make them useful, is a good conspiracy, I'd say. :)

[daerin]

well, you havent seen my army off templar with unseenly invincible strength, maxed skills and adamantium two-hander
i think i ve never seen anything like that before, skillfully being base damage and as fast rounds as ranger gets. this new skill "two-handed weapons" really works, speeding up melee with weapon in two hands greatly. i think it was better than my b'rogh monk even defense was futile, but that is not exp party issue

[yoz]

well, you havent seen my army off templar with unseenly invincible strength, maxed skills and adamantium two-hander
i think i ve never seen anything like that before, skillfully being base damage and as fast rounds as ranger gets. this new skill "two-handed weapons" really works, speeding up melee with weapon in two hands greatly. i think it was better than my b'rogh monk even defense was futile, but that is not exp party issue

Try similar army with templar levels, its better.
Pretty much anything with a big weapon in hand and large size hits hard now. However, i dont buy the "fact" that you hit as fast as rangers do! Especially with ada 2hander.


Two handed combat is great now, however dualwield is bit lame. But i'll live with at.

[lipides]

For example:
"But so far Solar seems to be the only one who knows what he is talking about in this topic. 99% of the rest is just clueless bullshit!"
I wouldnt want to party with such and arrogant pr*ck, would you?

Most ppl would think that way, only problem is that people which you are referring in your post are only ones worthy of partying.

[iluth]

Solar I'm not sure the problem is partying itself, it's just the way that this mud's combat works, that mostly all you need to do is raise a skill % high and hope it procs often.

The newly added shiet is great (momentums/uncanny) but it's not tactical, it's a bit of extra damage. We dont have things we can actively use like spell interrupts, or stuns that we can call upon when needed, it's mostly all about luck and spamming the combat maneuver/heal/blast button.

Granted i'm a nub in most guilds since i've only played two extensively, i'm not sure how much the other ones rely on players to be alert and have fast reflexes etc, but at least the melee ones i've been in dont require that.

[solar]

[whine]
Not sure if this is the right thread for this one, but it would seem to me that now that the Scions are open (surprise, surprise), quite a many players have rushed to try out the new guild, upsetting the delicate balance of power/need/xyz between the guilds.

We now have even less active partying healers than before, and the ones that are left are either in eternity-long idle-reincs, or solomachines, with only a few exceptions. This may be a problem, considering that the healers play a vital part in any party in a multiplayer game such as Icesus.

Even though the attraction of Scions may be temporary (as it is new and fresh) and that the balance will soon rectify itself, it still shows how vulnerable the game may be. Considering that Icesus is supposed to be a multiplayer game, and not a single-player game with extra reta^H^H^H^H flavour, the healers pay a very vital part in maintaining aspects of playability and entertainment value.

Making new interesting guilds is a double-edged sword - the old boring ones will lose players, and in case of air_priests, the rest of the mud will have to cope with the consequences. :)
[/whine]

So, uh, tune air_priest soloing ability to hell and make them party once more or something? >:)

Or implement that +partyexp bonus to make partying more appealing in general.

Discuss, bash, flame, troll, drink cola, idle etc.

[suron]

quickfix :

Make healing spells award experience points when cast on another party member again and problem solved! (if the award is high enough )

[nihil]

I'm not sure why Solar is the one to whine about this since he plain never gets any parties since he is universally disliked. Legitimate whiners step forward instead.