Just a small poll about thieves...

[aieon]

Felgan, if it'd be like that, the solution for the thief would just be to not log on for 2 boots.
I'd suggest something like in-game hours. say a counter of 2 game-days that runs when both of the players are online.
what'd that be like to code?
and maybe a receipt of some kind to show WhoDunit.
(been reading a bit too much Pratchett, I suppose ;D )

[felgand]

Now that you mention it, if thievery were allowed on Icesus...thieves would need to lose the ability to use safe rooms else they would be able to idle within one while waiting for the timer to end. In addition, it'd probably be best to set the timer on the thief's online time (48 hours worth) to simplify the system. Besides, if the victim doesn't notice/seek retribution within that timeframe it's reasonable to assume that they don't care enough about the lost item to bother.

I'm not entirely sure a thief needs a calling card that you're suggesting...it would take away from the entire concept of thievery and deception. However, it may be possible to add it as an option to a thief to leave a calling card and if they successfully pull off the heist (and survive the open pk timer) to increase their reputation in the guild...which may be one of the main methods to gain leadership.

[iluth]

Player on player stealing sounds like it would cause a lot of fights on a nice mud like this with limited pk, there could be a lot of players getting outcasted if they managed to steal a really nice eq from another player.

Though the idea is interesting from a Shadowdancers point of view, since it would be us who would be in demand for tracking down the thief (because of shadow sense)

[janeti]

In addition, the thief cannot move the item from his/her inventory until the timer is up and it will drop from his corpse if they die within in that time (free to be picked up by anyone).

Spend all xp, steal item, die, have friend pick up item, next time it's his turn to steal/die.

Icesus is a nice place wear I can tootle around, adventure, chat, and not lose anything but xp. If people can steal from me I'll probably just avoid it like I do several other MUDs where anti-social behaviour seems to be the norm. I can get picked on and bullied enough in RL, I don't see why I would want to volunteer for more of it online. And I wouldn't want to associate
with people who regard such as entertainment.

A compromise might be to only allow thieving in the areas where PK is legal, then, like now, I can just avoid the area and stick to having fun.

[belannaer]

Janeti and you others too have really good points why stealing from players shouldn't be allowed and I have to agree with you, especially with Janeti. I hadn't even thought the matter from that angle.

[mandrake]

belannaer please check out my post on the War thread as I mention the idea of a thieves guild in it would a number of ideas that would make it a little more fair for all an less likely to be abuse.

[amerek]

I've heard all of this talk about stealing, but nothing of lockpicking...

I assume that the thieve's will have this ability. I know that people have the 'pry' ability, but I hope that not all doors/chests/whatever are susceptible to pry. Thieves could have an array of lockpicks to choose from and even trap disarming capabilities--Monsters could carry treasure maps to a hidden cache(I love how you can bury stuff in this game), thieves could help open the chests (just in case the monster left the key at home).

The idea of the thieves guild having quests (Raid such and such a house in Vaerlon, stalking, not getting caught, cleaning up the mess if you accidently make too much noise).

As for stealing, I think that anyone who carries loads of silver around with them deserves to have them stolen. Items should be stealable from NPCs, but not if they're wielding them or wearing them. Shops could be stealable, but very risky.

-Amerek

[phu]

I think a class with a pick lock skill, and maybe not be able to steal eq, but have a 'cut purse' ability to slice open a players coin pouch and watch the money fall on the ground to pick up..purse stay cut for a short length of time then magically repairs itself leaving a trail, or pile if they were standing in one place, of nice shiny coins, an ability to trail someone, maybe have a miscellanous asortment of other classes skills, making them like jack of all trades, perhaps a blackjack skill to knock others unconcious making them easier to attack..mobs and such if not people. maybe some sort of disguise skill, to hide your name/title to trick people with false sales..a counterfiet skill to make blank copies of items that the thief holds, items that just have the same name and when you look at it it looks the same, but is a blank object..that sort of stuff.

I think it would be really cool..I love "rogues"

[dyzmal]

"The stealing skill would be something similar to backstabbing- if you do it, there is a possibility for the mob not to notice, but most of the time thry do, and then for a certain period of time you cant try again, for they would be expecting it. But this doesnt work with players: even if they aggro once you fail, you leave room and enter again and they dont agro again- that is the current system, if you leave the room and return you are no longer fighting the player. So idle players would be easy pickings. "

1. Don't idle outside of an inn with coins in your pockets and you won't have to worry about it.
2. You should only be able to steal coins, no eq, no items people are holding, just coins.
3. There should be a chance that you detect the thief's hand in your pockets, and some sort of script that will make it legal for you to attack the thief, kill the thief, and get your coins back (maybe even all of the thief's in-pocket coins) if successful. This would not only make it more fair to the theif's victims but make it more exciting for a thief because there is a real danger to stealing.
4. Maybe make it so you can steal items from shops at really high levels?

This sounds awesome.

[zaec]

My opinions:

1. The thieves should no be able to steal any armours/weapons, only money and items(not containers containing weapons/armours) even the player carries 2m of money the maximum amount to be pick pocketed would be 10-30k?

2. The thief cannot steal from players below level 25-30 and neither from any players that are 30 levels below his own.

3.You can only steal once/twice per boot from each player.

4. When caught from stealing(skill fails/player notices) automatically will be the kingdom's cityguards kill the thief on sight.
for a week/two.

5. Adding a 'wanted' command for each kingdom that player's can check who's an outlaw and who's not. Killing an outlaw is free for all. That flag removes itself when certain reputation has reached/a certain time passed?

6. Thievery from players should be only one way to play that rogue-kind-of character, not something the guild is based to.

7. Perhaps partying with a thief would decrease the reputation of the shole party in certain kingdoms/too much partying would cause more severe effects.

---With these rules:---
- the thieves guild would have no impact to the newbie-friendliness of the mud.

-the thieves can't harass people all-day long.

-no highbie can reinc into a thief and just steal everything from everybody all day-long.

-the life of an outlaw would be made so uneasy that it really sorts out everybody except players who _really_ want to play the game as an outlaw.

I myself have nothing against thieves if the guild will be built into a system similiar to what i just presented or otherwise limited with penalties and skill-restrictions. This guild would FINALLY bring into the game something concrete that all the goodie-goodies like templars are made to fight against.
Nothing is more frustrating that a guild that has no real purpose in the constantly changing world of icesus. What i mean is that even though everything in the templar's guild is made to be used to defent the justice, there is no actual reason why should the templars would guard their city gates, for example. There are simply nothing to threathen anyone.

In this post I have only commented to the stealing from players
because we all know that it is the issue that decides wether the thieves will be coded into the game. Shoplooting/fightingstyles/picking locks aren't abilities that anti-thief players are worried about.

and again to the end, the life of a thief should be made very hard.

[artic]

Zaec makes a good point. There is no purpose yet for the templars. Sure there are guild out there, with the hint of evil within them such as the earth priests, covenants, sorcerers and shadowdancers, but none of them are really outlawed and none of them can/need/want to do something to make them outlawed. (Most of the things that they can do, would result in interfierence from the immortals and no response from the templars.) So i think there is more than just a place for a guild that would exist outside the borders of the law, as a thorn in the side of the templars.

[solar]

Yes, I like Zaec's suggestions, and add some of my own:

Jail system:
Thieves that get 'killed' could be thrown into jail for some period of time. Their fellow colleagues could break them out from there, too - while causing a prison riot (freed npc:s). The iron bars could be filed through, the wall blown away with alchemist bombs/strong magic, the prison door picked. Could also be a part of the current 'templar guard duty', if Galiere is willing, to guard the prisoners... well, perhaps it might be too low for special people like the Templars.

Edited: The thieves could also poison the jailkeepers food/drink with lethal/sleep-inducing doses.

Edited: Make several jailrooms, in which caught thieves are kept, so that one guard could only see what's happening in one
cell at any time. He/she would have hard time seeing someone slip in a pair of lockpicks from the outside to the thief jailed.

Illegal goods:
As of now, there are no outlawed items that can be confiscated at the gates, so could some be added? Drugs,
perhaps poisons, lockpicks (yes, doors that require special key won't be able to be picked, but they could be used to free thieves from the jail).

[yoz]

haa!

bring them out.

With all the goodies.

However would be nice if thieves could disguise themself, for example to hide their who guild titles etc and replace them with some other. Maybe adding some infiltration-like skills so that they could produce similar messages like other guilds so that their disguise kit would be waterproof.

The whole idea of thieves loses its interest if they are well known all around, and if everyone knows who is a thief and who is not.

[felgand]

I think unless thieves are added as a restricted subguild (and not a mainguild) will you ever be able to reach the level of subterfuge you're looking for. I think, however, that it might be more rewarding to model thieves after bandits that steal...but generally use brute force to accomplish their means. This would make a nice contrast to the more "graceful" shadowdancers while still allowing room for many roguish activities.

Bandits would be able to operate well in both city and rural environments but would be a master of none...they would still be able to hide in shadows...and have some of the wilderness bonuses that rangers also enjoy. Included amongst this list would be the ability to drop their defenses momentarily in an attempt to steal from their victim. They would need to be in the front row to accomplish such a maneuver as close proximity is necessary to pilfer the necessary goods but it would give them a reasonable chance to steal an item. By the nature of the deed, worn items would be next to impossible to steal and wielded weaponry would resist such chances but would still stand a better chance. In addition, they could obtain a skill that would increase their inventory space...and would also improve their basic abilities.

Being more interested in brute strength, they are not learned enough to steal items outside of combat...but may still be able to pilfer a small amount of coins. A similiar ability would allow them to steal items while their opponent flees from combat as well, automatically. Their main weaponry would consist of daggers, shortswords, clubs, and their hands...possessing reasonable skill in each. Clubs would allow a thief to stun their victim long enough to bind their victim's appendages...which lowers lowers their victim's combat prowess. Bandits would also be skilled enough with daggers to use them to full effect...causing bleeding damage, disfigurement (-charisma, -dexterity), and perhaps some additional damage.

They would be less interested in complete disguises...but would be able to don a hooded cloak that would hide their faces and bodies (so you couldn't see their equipment) and let them appear as a hooded rogue instead of the normal short description.

[khade]

add a major switch weapon ability and that would work, maybe a really big % of draw weapon.