War??

[moraq]

With me, lower level shadowdancer, it is really annoying that I have to run miles to get to Vaerlon again for exp and all that, since I haven't found (and even really tried to find) exping areas for my sized player near Graemor..

And I totally agree Graemor being a little handicap because it is without shrines and blessing temples and such.

[artic]

Excuse my ignorance but Graemor has quite nifty exp areas nearby not to mention the town iself I explored a bit and found "unique" mobs/features there.

Though i should go and try find these nifty exp ares, i saw one which was reachable by foot, but not much else and there are definitely no mobs to kill, or money to make inside the actual town itself.

Hmm, you can become a graemorian with 1M total exp. For a player with 1M total exp there are no nifty exp areas around graemor!! I think maybe only 1 or 2 shadowdancers are currently strong enough to explore these unique mobs/features.

Also, to sacrifice stuff, there is only the eart shrine in graemor, and the water shrine a long way from graemor, with no paths or roads leading there. Other than that i would have to go to vaerlon again.

[felgand]

iluth wrote:

Anyway you're only looking at things from the perspective from a high level partying templar, those areas around graemor arent suitable for soloing as you well know

This is a false statement, explore the areas more closely and you'll understand why. Granted, the area around Graemor can benefit from more areas for shadowdancers, but to say there are none at all is incorrect (yes, even for a solo'ing shadowdancer).

iluth wrote:

...and selling loot in graemor is impossible since you can't get a cart inside the town, some of us still actually sell loot.

This statement I can agree with you with. It may be useful to have a trading post outside of Graemor that is affected by reputation or something to that extent, once again though...these areas need to be built and resources are thin.

I'm not trying to be rude in these replies, but you're adamantly defending statements that are not entirely true and are unwilling to take a step back for a moment and understand why we're replying as we do. In addition, your argument that adding exp'ing areas to Graemor would improve shadowdancer RPing completely boggles me. How does roleplay have anything to do with holding a good personal exp rate?

[odovacar]

As for increasing Graemor's "attraction" for tourists, I would suggest the following (all of these are things that I think make other towns more "accessible"):
- First and foremost: Pave roads to Graemor. Perhaps devise other methods of transportation less obscure than portals and more newbie friendly than chronos.
- Let Virzuduz cast random healing breeze like Ereldon
- Have a shortcut into town that doesn't go through the ferry where evil assassins lurk (and is quicker) , or add some in-town zone (sewers?), so that people can exp or get (smalltime?) loot without having to wait ages to get in/out of town.
- Add a temple of the elements (for blessings/saccing purposes) - even Atherton got one.
- Throw crazy parties in the town square!

Cheers,
Odo

[iluth]

The problem with not being 100 percent clear on your point often leads people to assume you are whining, or just begging other people to code you stuff. I've done coding before, and i wouldn't just come onto this forum and say "code this, code that" since i know what's involved. What's needed and would benefit this mud, is for the wizards to just remember Graemor exists on the map, so when the placement of a new area is being decided, perhaps it wouldn't automatically be dropped near Vaerlon. Or maybe one of those cut+paste mine areas in the outworld could be dropped there, at no real hassle to the immortals.

So if a wiz is happy about me adding features from Vaerlon to Graemor, such as the lockers, and removing that pointless ferry or adding a trading post then i'd be glad to do it, playing got boring anyway.

This is a false statement, explore the areas more closely and you'll understand why. Granted, the area around Graemor can benefit from more areas for shadowdancers, but to say there are none at all is incorrect (yes, even for a solo'ing shadowdancer).

Sure i accept i haven't explored properly, i visited one area which was a locked castle, which looked not very solo friendly, perhaps all the mobs in there are around 10k and dont wander around agro but i doubt it. The problem is the ferry, it discourages you to rent a stable which would help players to explore the areas around graemor without losing all their ep.

I'm not trying to be rude in these replies, but you're adamantly defending statements that are not entirely true and are unwilling to take a step back for a moment and understand why we're replying as we do.

I wonder who we is, so far the only people disagreeing with me have been two templars. You would really need to try and treat graemor as your hometown, and try and get most of your exp and money from it and areas around it to understand.

In addition, your argument that adding exp'ing areas to Graemor would improve shadowdancer RPing completely boggles me. How does roleplay have anything to do with holding a good personal exp rate?

It's simple, have you read the whole topic? Graemor is a pk free zone, but that is yet another wasted feature since nobody is in graemor long enough for any shadowdancers to use it. So shadowdancers sometimes resort to killing each other just because the town allows it.

Everything which has been discussed in this topic goes hand in hand, expanding Graemor's features might encourage some fun loving vaerlon players (with no exp on) to come and raid our town (but why bother to raid if nobody sees it?) which could provoke the shadowdancers to put their heads together and come up with a plan to invade Vaerlon and try kill a few guards and nobles, we can't do this now because we need good Vaerlon reputation to move within the town and sell our loot, or visit shanty town etc. So you see us shadowdancers are really too dependant on vaerlon to actually play properly, emerging from the sewers to stab some backs is just not worth it because the town is too valuable to us with how its located, and features like the locker room.

[stalker]

Everything which has been discussed in this topic goes hand in hand, expanding Graemor's features might encourage some fun loving vaerlon players (with no exp on) to come and raid our town (but why bother to raid if nobody sees it?) which could provoke the shadowdancers to put their heads together and come up with a plan to invade Vaerlon and try kill a few guards and nobles, we can't do this now because we need good Vaerlon reputation to move within the town and sell our loot, or visit shanty town etc. So you see us shadowdancers are really too dependant on vaerlon to actually play properly, emerging from the sewers to stab some backs is just not worth it because the town is too valuable to us with how its located, and features like the locker room.

Agreeing on these points, something nifty that would entice Vaerlonians to try to sneak around Graemor for Graemorians to stalk them would add much fun to the game.. On the other hand, the newbies in Vaerlon should be protected as far as possible from any large-scale aggression from Graemor. Hmm.

[apex]

Perhaps a few more guilds in/around Graemor would be nice as well? Get a couple other groups of graemor depending on it once its beefed up a bit.. (what is a city without population anyways? no matter what the purpose of the city...)

[felgand]

In case you want the short of it: I agree with the need for more areas near Graemor (as long as they fit in Graemor's theme) and a locker room but disagree with your points on the other changes. There's nothing wrong with a ferry (it even adds a unique touch to the city). Also, shadowdancers have excelled in the past without the remainder of the changes you propose, perhaps you have explored all the class has to offer? But, let me analyze your points step by step:

iluth wrote:

...so when the placement of a new area is being decided, perhaps it wouldn't automatically be dropped near Vaerlon. Or maybe one of those cut+paste mine areas in the outworld could be dropped there, at no real hassle to the immortals.

Agreed, more areas near Graemor would be nice but it requires more effort than just dropping areas anywhere on the map (in the ideal situation). The surrounding outworld should match the descriptions/atmosphere of the area itself and vice versa.

iluth wrote:

The problem is the ferry, it discourages you to rent a stable which would help players to explore the areas around graemor without losing all their ep.

Graemor sits on top of a river. Not only that, it gives Graemor a unique feature.

iluth wrote:

It's simple, have you read the whole topic? Graemor is a pk free zone, but that is yet another wasted feature since nobody is in graemor long enough for any shadowdancers to use it. So shadowdancers sometimes resort to killing each other just because the town allows it.

Funny you mention the topic, because your replies are not related to it. (The original topic being guild wars and the rules governing it.) If you think roleplaying an assassin just involves camping at the rift guard or Graemor entrance, waiting for someone to pass by so you can pk them...then I'm speechless. Do you really think you're roleplaying? (Especially since roleplay involves some interaction between people...simply hiding and stabbing someone is not roleplay).

iluth wrote:

...which could provoke the shadowdancers to put their heads together and come up with a plan to invade Vaerlon and try kill a few guards and nobles, we can't do this now because we need good Vaerlon reputation to move within the town and sell our loot, or visit shanty town etc.

There are other towns to sell at (I can think of 5 places offhand, there's probably more) and ways to Shanty town that do not involve ever stepping foot in Vaerlon. As you stated before, you're assassins...would any self-respecting assassin even bother with killing a common grunt (guard) when there are much more worthwhile prey to take down?

[apex]

Felgand,
No, "being an assassin" isn't waiting at rift entrance and such.. but if there are sdancers that do that.. why do you think they do it? because noone is ever at the city.. so in order to ever use our skills , they need to do that in order to "catch someone" as they come in. If noone uses the city, what is the point of having an assassin, specially equiped for player kills (hence again shadow sense).

Perhaps the ferry doesn't need to be moved... but maybe it can have a capacity to store mounts/carts? (in a lower hold or whatnot), also, I think the "exping area in the city" and other additions would be nice too.... out of the 3 main cities in Icesus now, Graemor is the weakest.. yet one of the only 2 with a main guild within it's walls. If you're really going to call Graemor home to the shadowdancers, it needs to be able to function as that.. a home.

and Graemor-goers ARE absolutely bound to Vaerlon. As Iluth mentioned, try living out of graemor for a week Felgand. There just aren't the provisions of any other city. Not many speakable mobs, not many quests/exp areas... when i first heard about graemor and the sdancers I thought graemor would be an "evilish version of vaerlon"... but it's far from it.
also as Iluth mentioned, and this is a big deal: as big as Icesus is, completely revolving around Vaerlon makes it MUCH smaller.
Especially as more and more people come into the game. Make USE of all these other cities instead of ignoring them.. and then maybe you wouldn't have to worry about never being able to get a decent run in at the sewers, or the rat cellar, or this place, or that place, there would be places elsewhere for people to hunt, in different cities, and hometown choice wouldn't be: vaerlon or shadowdancer..

and it DOES feel like this debate is Shadowdancers vs. templars (interesting) but i'm sure anyone who's spent a decent amoun of time as a shadowdancer would heartily agree with us.

[felgand]

Graemor shouldn't be an "evilish" version of Vaerlon...it should have its own history and atmosphere not be a carbon copy. Allowing the ferry to shuttle across mounts at a nominal fee sounds good to me though. The reason I made the comment about "being an assassin" is in response to Iluth's thread where he equates shadowdancer roleplay to having more targets to stab in Graemor. That's just plain silly.

[apex]

I didn't really mean an evilish version of vaerlon in a "copy and paste" sense as i did a functional sense (not same things, just same useability)

And "having people to stab" isn't rp, but is definitely linked to it. To rp as a shadowdancer.. you need to pk. Not necessarily all the time, but under certain circumstances you need to... (not random hide and stab people, and call that rp, but just in general the abilitiy to do so would enhance options.)

[felgand]

Take a look at Misrobo's post on the idea forum...something like that seems more plausible (and interesting) than increasing the pk in Graemor.

[apex]

I like Misrobo's idea.. but increasing people to kill is only a small part of what, i think, the shadowdancers are lamenting about (mainly)... giving someone to stab would fix a large amount of our troubles tho, so i'm happy for the looks in that direction , but I'd still likely to be a citizen of Graemor... and live there too

[artic]

To Felgand:

As i stated in the orginal post (it has changed into something really different now) being an assasin is not waiting all the time for someone to come along. But it IS stalking other player. Why shadowdancers are currently forced to sit and wait (they dont do that really, no-one is that patient to wait in graemor for someone to come, no-one) is that they are not allowed to stalk at other player anywhere else.

I would like to roleplay, id like to be an assasin totally deveoted to my guild. Keen on hunting down victims and stabbing them in the back when they least expect it. because of my great devotion to my guild it angers me greatly if some Vaerlon'ians attack my brothers-of-guild. I now want to seek revenge. And i want to get my revenge as an assasin.

But wait, here ends out nice story of me, role playing an assasin, because im not allowed to do anything further. What am i supposed to do, send you a tell and ask you to come to graemor, so i could exercise my revenge? That dont fit my role of unsuspected killer. I would like to use my shadow sense to locate you, see if if you are camping somehwere, than when you leave your camp to exp, id sneak in and hide, and then when you enter your camp, all tired from extencive fighting and ley down to sleep. Id like to coat my dagger with poison named "ForFellu" and stick that dagger deep into your back and hear you scream out in pain.
...
thats how id like to roleplay. not just fighting back the intruders in the guild hopelessly, because i dont have the tank abilities of a militia or templar player. instead im forced to forget the wrong doing to my guild and wait, maye fortune will shine upon me and the offenders fill return to graemor...
P.S Felgand! there is no hard feeling on my side...
, but my character really hates you!

RP != PK, but it is RP to believe in the devotion that i gather day after day. It is RP to play the character (an assasin, not tank) that i have chosen. And if there are rules that dont let me RP than its a non RP friendly game. Its still one of the best muds i have ever seen, but it dont support RP.

But enough of that.
I do agree that in graemor yould be made more into a home (independant from vaerlon), more RP in the sense of graemor vs vaerlon could take place. Also I think that the new idea byt misrobo is an excelent one adding much to the design of the shadowdancers. And in the original post i was not whining for others to code me this and come me that. i was asking others to maybe agree upon some set of rules that would more adapt to RP. But out of that probelm emerged new issues of how graemorians are too dependant on vaerlon to ever really RP.

I wonder why the vaerlon guards always mutter something about the evil shadowdancers and then greet me , evil shadowdancer, with a broad smile...

[artic]

And about the great and unlimited areas around graemor that supposedly exist. I am an explorier. Where-ever i could get in i have gone. there aer areas in the proximity of graemor. but they are all designed for high level players (well not all, you could kill <1K moles). And sure there are also some 5-10K mobs areound (the area of exp that would saticy my needs) but these mobs are not designed for shadowdancers. Morelikely they are designed for earth priests. A lot of mobs are agressive, move alot or there are too few monsters per area. Compared to areas near and in vaerlon thats low. i make very good money in vaerlon, I have a constant need to pass through vaerlon to go sacrifice my stuff and to access areas that lie beyond vaerlon. I even need good exp in vaerlon so the toll of passing by vaerlon would be lower and the money i yeld for selling stuff would be higher. Good rep in vaerlon for a graemorian assasin doesnt make sense. Unless im on the kings payroll.

By the way where is the king? Im sure he should fear assasins, like any royality does...