Do the skills slash, chop and swing (etc) have an effect all the time or only when you are using the 'related' combat style?
Has anyone noticed any advantage from putting combat points into defence? I don't seem to get hit any more with 20 in than 60 (and I've got several defensive skills). Or does it only become relevant when your defensive skills are as high as your offensive ones (presumably at some very high level they might), or for casters.
Combat Questions
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asventral
- Supporting Member 2007
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Battle settings define what you concentrate on during battles.
If you put maximum on attack ... then you'll "try" to hit more often ... focus on defense, and you'll "try" to parry as many attacks as you can ... and put maximum on casting and you could be able to cast some spells.
But, you'll never be effective on attack if you don't know any combat style, same about defence.
As far as I understood, your fighting skills could be seen like a pyramid ... with the melee skill on the top ... whichc seems to be the most basic one. Then there's your weapon type (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing) ... after that comes your combat style (deft, offensive, ... ) and for each of those combat styles you have more specific skills like swing, cleave, ... which are dependebt on of the combat style you're using. And finaly you can train battle strategies.
There are a lot of tother skills that can help you make more damages, or such ... but those are generaly more dependant on your guild.
I hope this would help a bit ... and mainly, that i didn't say something wrong
If you put maximum on attack ... then you'll "try" to hit more often ... focus on defense, and you'll "try" to parry as many attacks as you can ... and put maximum on casting and you could be able to cast some spells.
But, you'll never be effective on attack if you don't know any combat style, same about defence.
As far as I understood, your fighting skills could be seen like a pyramid ... with the melee skill on the top ... whichc seems to be the most basic one. Then there's your weapon type (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing) ... after that comes your combat style (deft, offensive, ... ) and for each of those combat styles you have more specific skills like swing, cleave, ... which are dependebt on of the combat style you're using. And finaly you can train battle strategies.
There are a lot of tother skills that can help you make more damages, or such ... but those are generaly more dependant on your guild.
I hope this would help a bit ... and mainly, that i didn't say something wrong
I know the theory (at least as far as the help files explain it). But personal experience is that putting points in defence is useless, you get hit no less often, you just hit the opposition less. I was wondering if anybody else had actually experimented and had experiences which did not back up mine. I was also wondering if you were limited to how many defence points you could USE (no matter how many you ASSIGN) by low defence skills.
And as far as the 'pyramid' is concerned, yes I got that from the help too. And the combat styles, aiming, deft, savage etc seem to be definitlely mutully exclusive, you choose which of them you are using. But the chop, slash, swing level of skills don't have any information available on WHEN they work. The help has information on using 'combat styles' but not on using 'hit styles'
And as far as the 'pyramid' is concerned, yes I got that from the help too. And the combat styles, aiming, deft, savage etc seem to be definitlely mutully exclusive, you choose which of them you are using. But the chop, slash, swing level of skills don't have any information available on WHEN they work. The help has information on using 'combat styles' but not on using 'hit styles'
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asventral
- Supporting Member 2007
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- Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 18:35 pm
- Location: Brussels, Belgium
I tried some fighthing guilds like templars, rangers, shadowdancers, militia, shifters ...
And i could say that in each case, setting your combat settings de defence could help a lot.
But you have at least to put you concentration on defence and use some defensive combat style. If you don't have any defensive skill like dodge, block, ... you'd probably not be effective.
About skills like swing,chop, ... they are used which the combat style to chich they are assigned. For example, offensive combat style use swing and cleave skills ... that means that swing and cleave increase the offectiveness of your offensive combat style. The informations about those can be read using 'help skill swing' ... or whatever the hitstyle is.
If you use some offensive combat styles you'll see some times that you hit the mob and immediately hit again without being shown in two separated sentences ... i think those are hits made using your combat styles/hit style.
[/quote]
And i could say that in each case, setting your combat settings de defence could help a lot.
But you have at least to put you concentration on defence and use some defensive combat style. If you don't have any defensive skill like dodge, block, ... you'd probably not be effective.
About skills like swing,chop, ... they are used which the combat style to chich they are assigned. For example, offensive combat style use swing and cleave skills ... that means that swing and cleave increase the offectiveness of your offensive combat style. The informations about those can be read using 'help skill swing' ... or whatever the hitstyle is.
If you use some offensive combat styles you'll see some times that you hit the mob and immediately hit again without being shown in two separated sentences ... i think those are hits made using your combat styles/hit style.
[/quote]
Putting points in defence for a ranger is probably pointless but i'm sure other guilds and setups can work defensively very well.
I think a defensive ranger is possible but only at really high levels of exp (and high defensive whirl masteries)
and about the combat styles working, here's an example of when you see them: "You strike Puma hitting its right foreleg with your longsword causing very dangerous slashes.
...and with a quick move you manage to hit your foe with a powerful slash."
The second attack message varies and depends purely on what combat style you're using.
I think a defensive ranger is possible but only at really high levels of exp (and high defensive whirl masteries)
and about the combat styles working, here's an example of when you see them: "You strike Puma hitting its right foreleg with your longsword causing very dangerous slashes.
...and with a quick move you manage to hit your foe with a powerful slash."
The second attack message varies and depends purely on what combat style you're using.
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odovacar
- Supporting Member 2013
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- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 01:53 am
- Location: Tel-Aviv, Israel
And if you have no skill in the relevant combat style you won't get continuous assault messages, even if you're skilled in it.iluth wrote: and about the combat styles working, here's an example of when you see them: "You strike Puma hitting its right foreleg with your longsword causing very dangerous slashes.
...and with a quick move you manage to hit your foe with a powerful slash."
The second attack message varies and depends purely on what combat style you're using.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
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odovacar
- Supporting Member 2013
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- Location: Tel-Aviv, Israel
It's combat styles that affect continuous assault messages.haplo wrote:I don't think that continuous assault affects to hit styles..
forceful and assailing, for example give different kinds of messages.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
Got belannaers permission to share information. And keep in mind my information from actual working of combat is from time before I falled from wizardhood, there might be changes done afterwards.
Combat assignments work basically like this: Each round you get added the amount of assigned combat points into pool(offence and defence but they are further divided into more pools. Also note that amount of pools does not affect how much points are put into certain pool, ie having parry pool does not take points from dodge pool). Each time you get enough points in offence pool, you get to try hitting. You miss, points lost, you hit, points lost. Defence works in same way except in many actions you don't get to see the fail message if it doesn't work but you lose the points anyway.
Ok, next to the combat styles. There are basically offensive and defensive combat styles(normal is useless, so I'll forget it). They increase chances of successful offensive action if they are offensive or defensive if they are defensive. Now if we think about combat assignments you will see that you should always put as much points as you can into offence if you have offensive style as the points are more effective in offence than defense(because of increased chance of success using offence points). Same goes for defence. In my opinnion this is stupid because there is only illusion of freedom while assigning combat points. Sure, casters can usefully choose how to assign points between casting and defence while soloing but that's it. But Idles and many many players seem to like it.
Continous assault gives you chance to hit additional time each time you hit. There is no speacial message and this additional hit looks just like normal hit and it's done with the same message as normal hit. You might get hit style or you might not.
To quote iluth:
and about the combat styles working, here's an example of when you see them: "You strike Puma hitting its right foreleg with your longsword causing very dangerous slashes.
...and with a quick move you manage to hit your foe with a powerful slash."
The hitstyle is the part beginning with ...
Also continous assault hit costs you points from the pool but it's cheaper than normal hit but does damage equal to normal hit, so it's quite nice skill even thought it does not work that often.
This was typed in hurry so ask questions if they don't get too technical. I won't give you information like what it the best combat style but I can outline differences between them and stuff like that. Anyway the best combat style depends on circumstances and there is no single best.
Combat assignments work basically like this: Each round you get added the amount of assigned combat points into pool(offence and defence but they are further divided into more pools. Also note that amount of pools does not affect how much points are put into certain pool, ie having parry pool does not take points from dodge pool). Each time you get enough points in offence pool, you get to try hitting. You miss, points lost, you hit, points lost. Defence works in same way except in many actions you don't get to see the fail message if it doesn't work but you lose the points anyway.
Ok, next to the combat styles. There are basically offensive and defensive combat styles(normal is useless, so I'll forget it). They increase chances of successful offensive action if they are offensive or defensive if they are defensive. Now if we think about combat assignments you will see that you should always put as much points as you can into offence if you have offensive style as the points are more effective in offence than defense(because of increased chance of success using offence points). Same goes for defence. In my opinnion this is stupid because there is only illusion of freedom while assigning combat points. Sure, casters can usefully choose how to assign points between casting and defence while soloing but that's it. But Idles and many many players seem to like it.
Continous assault gives you chance to hit additional time each time you hit. There is no speacial message and this additional hit looks just like normal hit and it's done with the same message as normal hit. You might get hit style or you might not.
To quote iluth:
and about the combat styles working, here's an example of when you see them: "You strike Puma hitting its right foreleg with your longsword causing very dangerous slashes.
...and with a quick move you manage to hit your foe with a powerful slash."
The hitstyle is the part beginning with ...
Also continous assault hit costs you points from the pool but it's cheaper than normal hit but does damage equal to normal hit, so it's quite nice skill even thought it does not work that often.
This was typed in hurry so ask questions if they don't get too technical. I won't give you information like what it the best combat style but I can outline differences between them and stuff like that. Anyway the best combat style depends on circumstances and there is no single best.
pools and skills
Okay, so I am a little confused about the way defensive skills work. I wonder that if I am putting my combat point pool heavily into to offence should I be useing exp on skills like dodge. does the higher percentage help the odds of it being successful or how often I get to make a attempt.
I hope this isn't too probing a question I just want to understand how our skill percentage plays into these pools of points...and I also want to know if training my dodge and avoid hits to level maximums is a total waste of time for a offensive character.
I hope this isn't too probing a question I just want to understand how our skill percentage plays into these pools of points...and I also want to know if training my dodge and avoid hits to level maximums is a total waste of time for a offensive character.
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artic
- Supporting Member 2005
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- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 15:54 pm
- Location: Tallinn, Estonia
heres what i understand from Creln's post:
If you got defence at 0% in 'battle' setting no points will be assigned to defecive pool and thus you wont even use 'dodge' and 'avoid hits' etc. If you put 'battle -a attack' some points will be left over and you will get the defencive skills aswell. What exactly a skill % affects I don't know- it is safe to say a higher skill % won't hurt you tho. Also I would imagine if you use an offencive battle style (in help it always says that then you will defend less) it would make the defencive pools bigger, so you need more point collected to that pool before you attemp a defecive skill and probably also lowers to success rate of them defencive skills- Thus (me think) the higher you skill % in the defencive skills, the better you can compensate for being offencive.
If you got defence at 0% in 'battle' setting no points will be assigned to defecive pool and thus you wont even use 'dodge' and 'avoid hits' etc. If you put 'battle -a attack' some points will be left over and you will get the defencive skills aswell. What exactly a skill % affects I don't know- it is safe to say a higher skill % won't hurt you tho. Also I would imagine if you use an offencive battle style (in help it always says that then you will defend less) it would make the defencive pools bigger, so you need more point collected to that pool before you attemp a defecive skill and probably also lowers to success rate of them defencive skills- Thus (me think) the higher you skill % in the defencive skills, the better you can compensate for being offencive.
Praised be the god of fire, may he bless me and my dark brethren with the warmth, and save me from the light of hes holy flames.
Combat Questions
Thanks for the reply.
Just a few questions. I don't expect answers to all of them, but if I don't ask I'll definitely not get them.
You mentioned a dodge pool. Does this mean that when Help Skill Dodge says "This skill is checked every time somebody or something tries to hit you." it's lying? Similarly how does Avoid Hits fit in.
When you have several defences and they all come up to be useful, presumably all at the same time**, and a hit comes in are they all checked immediately or are they checked in order, and if one works the rest are saved for the next hit? Or in other words will having five or six defence skills and a concentration on defence give me a chance of dodging/parrying/blocking multiple attacks each round, since most of the things I fight get two or three attacks to each one of mine, and that's when there is just one of them, with multiple opponents it can be much higher.
Does Contact Reflexes have a pool and if so is it used on any hit or only those over a certain size?
Are the <???> Armours skills affected by your battle settings?
The hit style Swing says it's not very effective, does this just mean that it provides no bonus', and presumably no negatives?
I presume that Enhance Criticals is checked on each hit, along with Continuous Assault and maybe twin weapons. But is Find Weakness also, or is this used (also or only) to make the opposition easier to hit? The Help makes it sound as though it might work differently for melee and spells, or is the help just badly written and it merely helps you bypass any resistances that the opposition might have? Does a Twin Weapons attack use up your pool like a Contiuous Assault attack?
How do Battle Manoeuvres fit in to the pools? If at all. Particulary Whirling Blades, if you are using a defensive version and concentrating totally on defence will you ever get the manoeuvre off, or do the defensive versions use the defence pool?
Similarly how do special skills fit in (the only ones I know about are Animal Lore and Rural Combat but I presume that there could be more for other guilds). Do they use the pools or are they checked some other way, I suspect so since I believe that I have had two or three of the same skill go off in one combat round.
** Thinking about that do all defences and attacks 'fill up' their pool at the same speed, or are some useable more often than others?
Just a few questions. I don't expect answers to all of them, but if I don't ask I'll definitely not get them.
You mentioned a dodge pool. Does this mean that when Help Skill Dodge says "This skill is checked every time somebody or something tries to hit you." it's lying? Similarly how does Avoid Hits fit in.
When you have several defences and they all come up to be useful, presumably all at the same time**, and a hit comes in are they all checked immediately or are they checked in order, and if one works the rest are saved for the next hit? Or in other words will having five or six defence skills and a concentration on defence give me a chance of dodging/parrying/blocking multiple attacks each round, since most of the things I fight get two or three attacks to each one of mine, and that's when there is just one of them, with multiple opponents it can be much higher.
Does Contact Reflexes have a pool and if so is it used on any hit or only those over a certain size?
Are the <???> Armours skills affected by your battle settings?
The hit style Swing says it's not very effective, does this just mean that it provides no bonus', and presumably no negatives?
I presume that Enhance Criticals is checked on each hit, along with Continuous Assault and maybe twin weapons. But is Find Weakness also, or is this used (also or only) to make the opposition easier to hit? The Help makes it sound as though it might work differently for melee and spells, or is the help just badly written and it merely helps you bypass any resistances that the opposition might have? Does a Twin Weapons attack use up your pool like a Contiuous Assault attack?
How do Battle Manoeuvres fit in to the pools? If at all. Particulary Whirling Blades, if you are using a defensive version and concentrating totally on defence will you ever get the manoeuvre off, or do the defensive versions use the defence pool?
Similarly how do special skills fit in (the only ones I know about are Animal Lore and Rural Combat but I presume that there could be more for other guilds). Do they use the pools or are they checked some other way, I suspect so since I believe that I have had two or three of the same skill go off in one combat round.
** Thinking about that do all defences and attacks 'fill up' their pool at the same speed, or are some useable more often than others?
Avoid hit is prolly calculated when the monster hits you, making it miss more.
I think that the thing with dodge is something like, that you allways have a chance to dodge (ie. for example classes who have no dodge skill can still dodge). The more you put points to defence the more you dodge, the more points you got in your defensive pool, more chances you get to dodge the hit.
About the stacking of defensive skills:
Yes it is worth it to train defensive skills, this is how i believe it goes like:
Whenever a monster hits you, first is avoid hit calculated as a minus to the foe's attack bonus, then dodge kicks in and gives you a chance to dodge the hit, after that shield parry then weapon parry, then block. (im not certain about the order they kick in at, but this is what i think is most logical).
If you fail in an attempt, you propably wont lose any points from the pool, and get moved to the next check of the defensive pool
COntact reflexes:
I assume that combat sense or contact reflexes or determination do not use any pools from your defensive pool, they just give you an additional save when the triggering action happens.
Im 99% certain that armour skills arent affected, they just bring prot.
Find weakness is checked with every hit i assume, giving you a higher range of critical hits (ie. first you got 19-20 with d20 and after training find weakness you got 17-20 with d20. This is just a crude d&d example). I too doubt that twin weapons practically doesent affect the pool. (but it affects the chance to hit with offhand when the bonus is calculated)
The size of pool prolly affects the speed of the maneuver and maybe the damage too. (except for rangers, everything matters for their maneuvers, i believe that ranger maneuvers use the one you've put more points to)
And for oral combat and anal lore, i assume that they just add +dam/speed/hit whatever and occasionally show messages when they function.
yours truly ~Yoz
ps. These are all just logically thought up. None of them is scientifically proved right.!
I think that the thing with dodge is something like, that you allways have a chance to dodge (ie. for example classes who have no dodge skill can still dodge). The more you put points to defence the more you dodge, the more points you got in your defensive pool, more chances you get to dodge the hit.
About the stacking of defensive skills:
Yes it is worth it to train defensive skills, this is how i believe it goes like:
Whenever a monster hits you, first is avoid hit calculated as a minus to the foe's attack bonus, then dodge kicks in and gives you a chance to dodge the hit, after that shield parry then weapon parry, then block. (im not certain about the order they kick in at, but this is what i think is most logical).
If you fail in an attempt, you propably wont lose any points from the pool, and get moved to the next check of the defensive pool
COntact reflexes:
I assume that combat sense or contact reflexes or determination do not use any pools from your defensive pool, they just give you an additional save when the triggering action happens.
Im 99% certain that armour skills arent affected, they just bring prot.
Find weakness is checked with every hit i assume, giving you a higher range of critical hits (ie. first you got 19-20 with d20 and after training find weakness you got 17-20 with d20. This is just a crude d&d example). I too doubt that twin weapons practically doesent affect the pool. (but it affects the chance to hit with offhand when the bonus is calculated)
The size of pool prolly affects the speed of the maneuver and maybe the damage too. (except for rangers, everything matters for their maneuvers, i believe that ranger maneuvers use the one you've put more points to)
And for oral combat and anal lore, i assume that they just add +dam/speed/hit whatever and occasionally show messages when they function.
yours truly ~Yoz
ps. These are all just logically thought up. None of them is scientifically proved right.!
Combat Questions
That's pretty much how I ASSUMED everything worked (from the descriptions) but Creln's post made me think again.
Except you're wrong on Animal Lore and Rural Combat, these are both seperate attacks (definitely not just attack modifiers), seemingly having nothing to to with normal combat. Both have a chance of Twin Weapons giving an additional attack too. And much like Battle Manoeuvres they tend to do much more damage than a normal melee attack.
Next time I'm on I'll try putting nothing in attack (against something small) and see if they still go off. I'll also have a play with Whirling Blades and battle settings. I'll let people know what happens, if anyone is interested. So long as a Wiz doesn't tell me I'm overstepping 'sharing info', which I hope the above bit doesn't contravene.
But at least it seems I'm not the only one slightly confused or concerned about how combat works. I really want to sit down with my guild trainer and have a good long discussion on the theory and practice, I'd even pay him, in money and exp. But I'm not allowed to
Except you're wrong on Animal Lore and Rural Combat, these are both seperate attacks (definitely not just attack modifiers), seemingly having nothing to to with normal combat. Both have a chance of Twin Weapons giving an additional attack too. And much like Battle Manoeuvres they tend to do much more damage than a normal melee attack.
Next time I'm on I'll try putting nothing in attack (against something small) and see if they still go off. I'll also have a play with Whirling Blades and battle settings. I'll let people know what happens, if anyone is interested. So long as a Wiz doesn't tell me I'm overstepping 'sharing info', which I hope the above bit doesn't contravene.
But at least it seems I'm not the only one slightly confused or concerned about how combat works. I really want to sit down with my guild trainer and have a good long discussion on the theory and practice, I'd even pay him, in money and exp. But I'm not allowed to