Common courtesy & "kill stealing".

[solf]

I'm getting a feeling that existing rules about kill stealing do Icesus a disservice.

Apparently, since only direct kill stealing is explicitly prohibited (i.e. you attack mob that was already damaged by someone else), a significant portion of the people thinks that everything else is "perfectly fine".

My personal pet peeve is killing mobs in the same room where someone else is fighting (e.g. person A fights mob #1, person B comes in and attacks #2), but there may be many different situation where "kill stealing rule" is not directly violated but the result amounts practically to the same thing. For example, consider that you have fought your way through some guards to a "guarded" room and sit down to rest/meditate/heal before taking on a next mob. Somebody else comes in and simply kills whatever is in the room -- since you are not fighting it he's not "breaking the rules".


My opinion is that it would be better to either make kill stealing rules way more strict (such as don't allow attack mobs in the same room where someone else is fighting or standing -- personally I consider this a common courtesy, but YMMV), OR remove kill stealing rule altogether -- just let players themselves to deal with it (obviously kill stealing should be excuse enough to player kill someone then).

I believe that if there would be no formal "kill stealing" rule as such, players themselves would choose an "informal rule" that would be accepted by the majority. The persons unwilling to follow that informal rule will risk negative attitude from other players up to getting killed by other players if they are especially annoying.


All of the above is, of course, entirely "IMHO". Based on the fact that I'm irritated by the people who consider it's perfectly fine to barge in and start killing mobs in the room I'm fighting or recuperating. Possibly the majority of the people consider this "normal behaviour" on the Icesus MUD... However I've been told by one player that is older than me (on the MUD), that most people would agree with my point of view.


What's your opinion?

[etadan]

For example, consider that you have fought your way through some guards to a "guarded" room and sit down to rest/meditate/heal before taking on a next mob. Somebody else comes in and simply kills whatever is in the room -- since you are not fighting it he's not "breaking the rules".

This depends. If you went all the way back(doesn't matter if only 2 rooms) back to camp, then it's 'not evil' to kill some mob that is in excelent shape, because some people just like to kill the guards, but are unable to kill 'the boss'. Now if you were standing in same room with the mob you intend to kill(or next to it you it's an agro mose), and not badly idle, then it's 'EVIL'. In both cases one should try asking people he has seen near area if they were killing/going to kill the mob. But in camp case, it's not mandotory.

It's just my imo.

[stalker]

As far as I'm concerned I'd rather see the administration imposing minimal rules on player behaviour and rather see their actions being controlled by the social framework (as you stated: "common courtesy rules").

The current rules are, in my opinion, an attempt to restrict by means of administrational interference the most hard-core violations taken against other players.

In relation to the situations as you've described problematic, article VII ought to be interpreted in a way that individual exemptions to the principal rule as described in article IV would be, in fact, per se applied in cases where the player killing has been a direct response to a well-known and unarguable "common courtesy" rule.

Therefore the current player killing rules seem to be aligned in regard to your view on how different types of kill stealing shall be deemed by the administration, if the player killed would set forth an 'issue' on the matter.

The wording of the current player killing rules were made unfavourable towards player killing outside the exemptions as described in article III to effectively reduce the plentiful player killing that occurred before and during the time the current rules were introduced. As player killing has since decreased a significant amount, the rules would probably have a different wording if written today. However, the policy regarding player killing would still be, in my opinion, as described above.

[solf]

Well, IMHO, people should ask before attacking stuff in the same room as another player (or nearby if there's reasonable chance that player got there first and is intending to kill, but is just recuperating, for example).

The problem is that it is "my opinion".

I've been "victim" in cases when people barge in the room where I'm fighting and kill "2nd mob" there. Also I've been "victim" in the case where I was meditating to regen before killing and person barged in and killed the mob, claiming that I was idle -- of course I was -- I was meditating (when you are meditating most commands are not available, so it's no wonder persons appear as idle)!

In all these cases all these people were "technically right" and I couldn't do anything about it -- that's the part I don't like.

So I'm bringing the topic up in hopes that if enough people think like I do, there's a chance that rules get amended.

[etadan]

...where I was meditating to regen before killing and person barged in and killed the mob, claiming that I was idle -- of course I was -- I was meditating (when you are meditating most commands are not available, so it's no wonder persons appear as idle)!

Still, you can check party status and such, to keep yourself under 1 minute idle(i might not ask anything if person has been idle for more than 3min, altough i usualy ask 'badly idle?' or such and wait if person replys). With monk meditation it's lil bit harder, as monks tend to meditate for hours, and noone knows when they gona start it, but that only applys to camp meditating... in unclear cases ones should always ask..

In some mud(s) they give exp for damage done, not for the actual kill. That sill leaves eq stealing, and what's worse finding some easy monsters, hit them to almost dead, and let them regenerate.

You look around sadly and let out a loud 'Mooooooo!'

[tanstai]

Great Post, I have one thing to say on it, and one thing to add.

1. Attacking a mob in the same room with you WHILE you are fighting is questionable, and risky (especially if you use area spells), but if you're resting, I'm more poor prone to say tough luck. BECAUSE, you could kill the mob, rest in the room waiting for it to regen, just to kill it again...that's mob/area guarding, and should be illeagal. Common courtesy would dictate asking the player that's nearby/resting/meditating, but the other side of that coin is trusting the rester not to lie. I haven't been here long enough to know if this is an issue on Icesus, but I have seen it be an issue on other muds.

2. I'd like an official ruling on killing a mob that killed the player.
*I walk in, see the mob hurt some, see the players corpse.* That SHOULD be fair game. Especially from an RP perspective, and this is an RP encouraged mud. I do NOT *KNOW* that player is comming back from the dead, nor do I know if he wishes to make ANOTHER attempt on the mob that killed him. At any rate, I should not have to try and get in touch with the SOUL of said dead person, to find out if they are HOPING to avenge themselves. If the mob killed you, get back in line, set wimpy/flee faster next time... I do not think that kill stealing rules were designed to protect mobs that kill YOU!

OK, that's all.

Tanstai

[stalker]

2. I'd like an official ruling on killing a mob that killed the player.
*I walk in, see the mob hurt some, see the players corpse.* That SHOULD be fair game. Especially from an RP perspective, and this is an RP encouraged mud. I do NOT *KNOW* that player is comming back from the dead, nor do I know if he wishes to make ANOTHER attempt on the mob that killed him. At any rate, I should not have to try and get in touch with the SOUL of said dead person, to find out if they are HOPING to avenge themselves. If the mob killed you, get back in line, set wimpy/flee faster next time... I do not think that kill stealing rules were designed to protect mobs that kill YOU!

Tanstai

Writing complex and plentiful rules on kill stealing isn't the difficult part. The complexity in evaluating alleged kill steals is, in my experience, in finding sufficient and objective evidence of the circumstances in which the defendant initiated combat. A rule in where killing a wounded monster would be allowed if a corpse of a player is found in the immediate vicinity of the aforementioned monster goes, in my opinion, a bit far in codifying general courtesy.

General courtesy ought rather be something that the players bitch and moan about to each other.

[huck]

Very much so backing up what Stalker had to say. If it's questionable, just simply file an issue and we will deal with it. And word to the wise, publically bitching and moaning about it, before creating and official issue is obnoxious.

[lemi]

maybe after you kill the guards you should run to the "boss" and smack it once and flee, and then it will be aggro and if anyone tries to kill it while you regen they will be violating the rules.

[iskey]

maybe after you kill the guards you should run to the "boss" and smack it once and flee, and then it will be aggro and if anyone tries to kill it while you regen they will be violating the rules.

As long as you don't abuse this. Marking whole area with only smacking mobs once and then killing them seriously is quite annoying. I've seen this happen only twice though.

[maruxus]

My personal opinion on this may not be widely appreciated, but I think that less administrative action should be taken, and more player killing for what you view as a wrong done to you. Perhaps even a slight easing of the PK rules would make someone think before they KS.

[belannaer]

I agree with you Maruxus. More player killing should be allowed but in certain limits

[maruxus]

This may be a bit extreme, but what if we were to change the PK rule to state (and this is just a rough draft)

"All PK shall be legal as long as there is an in-game ie. Roleplay reason deemed worthy by the Administration."

[lemi]

maybe change it so that there is a settable variable.

>set pk on

and then you could kill/be killed by other pc's?

[maruxus]

Never liked that feature in muds, it leaves the non-pkables thinking they can get away with any pkable offense.