Blackjack rules

[apog]

While playing the blackjack game in the Inn. I noticed that when the dealer and the player get the same card count that the dealer wins. This is in disaggreement with the rules of Blackjack. In Blackjack, if both the dealer and the player have the same card count (and both are at or below 21), then neither the player nor the dealer win.

I'm listing several links to sites that have the official rules of Blackjack. I am trying to get Idles to change the rules to the Blackjack game to reflect the official rules. I'd like your view on it, especially the Finnish players. I'm especially looking for anything specifically stating that that a tie means the player loses (or the dealer wins).

EDIT: I added a couple links to casino rules outside of the United States. The research into non-American casinos was fun. I particularly like some of the Australian casinos, they are quite beautiful.

EDIT: Added some statistics.
This was using the "Complete Basic Strategy" method. This method gives a chart of the "statistically best" plays for each hand.

With pushes = tie, no loss
250,000,000 hands - Win 47.73% - Loss 52.27% - House advantage - 4.45%

With pushes = dealer wins
250,000,000 hands - Win 43.75% - Loss 56.25% - House advantage - 12.5%


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackjack#Rules
If the player's and the dealer's hands have the same point value, this is known as a "push", and neither player nor dealer wins the hand.

http://games.yahoo.com/games/rules/blac ... ml?page=bj
In case of a tie, or "push" the player's bet is returned (no money changes hands).

http://stuffo.howstuffworks.com/blackjack3.htm
A tie is a push -- the player gets his bet back, but wins nothing.

Non-United States Casinos:

Canada
http://discoverniagara.com/casino/table ... ckjack.php
Standoff / Push
Occurs when both you and the Dealer have 21 or the same amount - nothing gained nothing lost.

Australia
http://www.casinocanberra.com.au/gaming/blackj.html
If you both have the same score, it is called a standoff and the bets don't lose

Australia (PDF file)
http://www.conrad.com.au/jupiters/gamin ... ckjack.pdf
If you and the Dealer both have Blackjack, or the
same card total, it is considered a draw or “Stand
Off” — you neither win nor lose.

Finland
http://www.grandcasinohelsinki.fi/pelit ... anasto.php
Stand off - Tasapeli, tasan (black jack). Tilanne, jossa pelaajan ja pelinhoitajan korttien arvo on sama.
Translation (thanks Moraq): Stand off - tie, tied (blackjack), situation where the dealer and the players cards sum is equal'.

http://www.grandcasinohelsinki.fi/pelit ... -pitka.php
Mikäli pelaajan ja jakajan kädet ovat samansuuruiset, tuloksena on tasapeli (stand off) eli panos ei voita tai häviä. Kaikki ne panokset häviävät, joiden käsien pistemäärä on pienempi kuin jakajan.
Translation (thanks Moraq): (coming soon)

[khade]

i don't play much blackjack, but even i know that it is not the dealer that wins in a tie. i think there might be some specialized rules that have the player win, but i am not sure of that.

[solar]

It's unofficially 'icejack' here... And I think Treax coded it... So there.

[apog]

It's unofficially 'icejack' here... And I think Treax coded it... So there.

As we all know "Icesus is Icesus" however, our poker doesn't have rules that contradict normal rules, so why would our blackjack? The game is called "blackjack" in that room. The rules on the sign in that room are the same rules for regular blackjack, except there is no mention of this modification (which statistically speaking is quite a major modification to the odds of the game).

While the original coder is no longer around, and thus it is impossible to ask him/her the original intent (whether this deviation was intentional or not), I do believe that it's in the best interest of the players to have a blackjack game that is not misleading in it's play and that follows the traditional rules. I don't believe that just because someone coded it awhile back and every has just "dealt with it" means that it should stay that way (or that it was correct in the first place). Bugs, whether logical "I can drink a vial while sleeping" or runtime "division by zero" are found all the time. And sometimes "Bugs" are really features in disguise, but I feel that voicing concerns and informing the Icesus community is the only way to concert changes.

[kraven]

i think it has been made that way so players dont play it all day and won millions..now they have slightly more chance to lose so and then they go mad and start exping like hell period

[rotax]

Yes, but even with a push breaking you even, the dealer has the advantage.

Overall, more money should be lost then won.


And I'm happy, cause I won 1 million silver despite the odds :p

[oren]

I am on board with this. It was quite a shock the first time I was expecting a push, and then lost. I realize icesus is icesus and all, and I'm not going to stop playing blackjack one way or the other, but an 8% difference in the house advantage is huge.

A better way to keep people from abusing the game would be to set a maximum bet limit. Then the original rules of the game could be kept intact.

[thoran]

The blackjack rules that apply to Icesus blackjack are RAY ("Slot machine association", only company in Finland who can legally offer gambling possibilities) "Restaurant rules" that apply to blackjack tables found in clubs and bars all over Finland.

Probably the reason why this set is used is that you can find a leaflet containing the rules in your local nightclub... these are the rules that most of the finns are used to.

In those rules, house wins in case of a tie, except in case of where both house and player have blackjack.

BTW there are no "The official Rules of Blackjack". The rules vary from casino to casino, from coutry to country. You just need to know the rules before you play. (For example, when you play blackjack in a finnish bar, it is written to the table that "in case of a tie, bank wins". Believe me, I have stared that many times after losing all my money and having to walk home.

Also, I think you can find the blackjack help and rules in the room, if you can't, or if they are erronous, then report that as a bug.

[tumi]

I don't know which rules you've read (and I don't hang too much in the restaurants reading bj rules, but here is quote from RAY Grand Casino Helsinki's website of Blackjack rules used:

Kun kaikki pelaajat ovat tehneet päätöksensä, on jakajan vuoro vetää lisää kortteja. Pelinhoitaja ei tee lisäkorttiensa otossa itsenäisiä päätöksiä, vaan hänen on noudatettava seuraavaa sääntöä: jos pistemäärä on 16 tai vähemmän, otetaan lisäkortti; jos pistemäärä on 17 tai enemmän, lisäkorttia ei oteta.

Sitten pelinhoitaja maksaa 1:1 voiton (black jack 3:2) kaikille niille käsille, joiden pistemäärä on korkeampi kuin jakajan käden. Mikäli pelaajan ja jakajan kädet ovat samansuuruiset, tuloksena on tasapeli (stand off) eli panos ei voita tai häviä. Kaikki ne panokset häviävät, joiden käsien pistemäärä on pienempi kuin jakajan.

[tumi]

Also, I think you can find the blackjack help and rules in the room, if you can't, or if they are erronous, then report that as a bug.

Of course rules shown in the room are the ones used, naturally.

[thoran]

I don't know which rules you've read (and I don't hang too much in the restaurants reading bj rules, but here is quote from RAY Grand Casino Helsinki's website of Blackjack rules used:

FYI, RAY casino rules are different from RAY restaurant rules.

From restaurant rules:
Pelaaja voittaa 1:1 (tuplaa panoksensa), jos hänen pistemääränsä on lähempänä 21:tä kuin pelinhoitajan. Jos pelinhoitaja on lähempänä 21:tä, pelaaja häviää panoksensa. Tasapisteillä voittaa pelinhoitaja, paitsi tilanteessa jossa molemmilla on 21, jolloin peli on tasan.

http://www.pelaamo.ray.fi/pelit/blackjack.html

[arkady]

I am sorry but as most of the people raiseing these points are english speakers we cannot read the rules you are citing, could you provide some rudimentary translations.


Aaron/Arkady

[dunn]

I agree, I don't understand what the debate is.

However, if it doesn't unbalance the game I think rules that are more standard should be used instead, this is a game that's supposed to be fun.. We lose at blackjack plenty of times without being pushed over on a tie, and casinos here don't have that "restaurant rule" and still make a huge amount of money.

My point is why not have rules that are fair.. House winning on a tie does not make any sense.

It's also not fun.

[apog]

Any particular reason why club/restraunt rules should override common casino rules throughout the world?

[kirmet]

My point is why not have rules that are fair.. House winning on a tie does not make any sense.

of course that makes sense. casinos want to make money and therefore the chance of the house winning is always a bit higher then of the player winning.

thats the reason why the 0 is implementet in roulette.
1 - 36 are either black or red but 0 has another color (green as far as i know)
so with the most people betting on either black or red the chance isnt even 50% of winning. therefore house wins ALWAYS in the long run.