Merchant's council/ruling body

[arkady]

I am against the idea that item glows should cost the wearer df, lets think about this high end eq costs quite a bit to resize and recharge, so why should we make a another tax on the player by making his full set of random glow eq cost him df, sure df is not to hard to get but I Think that, from the presective of 200+ million exp the game seems much diffrent then from ~20 million exp. For instance, I had to work constantly at it for more then a week of 6 hour playing blocks and I had too sell off about half my locker to get to 1,5 million silver.

This game is tough and I think that with the arrival of new classes such as the sorcerer and psi, some of the older eq mobs that were coded for the first three guilds are no longer as difficult to kill, hense deflating the value of their dropped eq.

Honestly I think that the df thing while not a total deal killer for me would make me chose between the df blessings I have which give me stats I don't have to be ashamed of and the eq which keeps me alive, would make the game much tougher then it already is for a large minority of players. Plus we are not dealing with the other source of this problem which is just that some newbies are just handed money and eq just for spamming up newbie channel.

[suron]

You have all forgotten one solution to the matter...

Zap random people...no thats not what I was going to say...

Make a way to buy for example df or even advancement points with gold hard cash. The points achieved this way are lost on reinc. 1-10 megs / advancement point. Oh yeah, people can really buff up their stats for many, many, many megs of money but so what, they eventually have to reinc anyway. They might get some exp more faster but as in some movie they said 'nature will find its way', they are going to get the exp anyways. Now they just lose more money in the process.



(I know people will post about them being extra magic items/blessings which doesn't need be kept. So what? I still would rather use exp to get adv points not money)

[dunn]

I blame Stalker's apartments.

I was only making a joke, your apartments have made all the highbies broke recently.

And some midbies to save up!

[dunn]

I think Arkady has a point, this game is already tough.. Even for a midbie, gathering a decent set to wear is a task onto itself.

The game has advanced, this is a fact. Old stuff has changed, things have been removed. *cough*Teladan*cough* Good eq today is no longer good compared to a year ago. Prices fall. Eq mobs are easier to run. Nothing wrong with newbies being helped..

The new guilds have almost entirely changed the way the game is played. This is a fact. Not saying that they're imbalanced but as it comes with variety, it breeds change. If the game supply sources are not regulated they become out of control/abused.

The only regulation on Icesus has been mainted by players. If any solution can be arrived at, it should follow Solar's original thread, if nothing else.. Which is the only regulation we've had. Player run, with all its pros and cons.
(Leaving out the eq purge, which wouldn't accomplish anything, at all.)

There are also a lot more high level players, no more hunters and no more running outworld as a main source for DF. The old DF costs have to be supplemented from somewhere.

If the problem is, we don't want newbies in high gear, which is hardly what I've seen, paying even more for stuff you've spent months to get, constantly, is not the solution.

I am almost completely against making glows cost DF. First off, it makes no sense in game, since what is the point of magical equipment in the first place.. It's not DIVINE EQUIPMENT.

If there is a set that is DIVINE and would require DF to maintain, I would want it too! But there isn't.. This is basically just downgrading our current equipment. It's bad enough we have to charge/restore some pieces every hour.. That alone should keep newbies at bay, but the main reason is that for a newbie, or anyone willing to get their hands dirty for a few hours, it's quite easy to amass a ton of cash selling the crap people leave behind.

(Darn you, disc!)

So the high cost of restoring glows is offset by selling junk. Not very appealing to keeping a check on things. This isn't fixable.

The only feasable option is mandatory market regulation that changes based on the player base.

Plus, I am a strong believer in skills.. If a newbie has some good weapon that doesn't guarantee they can use it. Armour too. But this isn't really a problem about newbies with cool stuff. People bring their friends, and loan them stuff. It's that simple.

How hard would it be to have an automated sales channel that calculates minimum bids? Appraise already does it. Divide by two to make owning a booth that much more appealing.

The last point is, no one should be forced to pay DF to have a decent shot at playing the game.

-No one should be forced to pay DF to play.
I myself don't take blessings because I don't want to be forced to pay to play, however you take it in game terms.

-This is equivalent to implementing a rent system for Icesus.
Ie, pay for eq you want to save with you. Every mud that has a rent system is a no-competition mud. Meaning no one plays.

(For anyone interested, the progression of muds has been from rents to level caps for wearing items. How is this rent? DF is a form of currency.)

As to the economy.. Either people have millions and millions or they are very very poor. A factor that contributes to this: party leaders not sharing. Yes, this is a common problem. Party leader benefits while the rest just get exp. You just love making 1m exp in a party and no cash!

So we get to the real meat and potatoes of this game: Area knowledge. You know how to get around the mud and suddenly cash, DF is a breeze and few players can protest if you choose to screw them over.

One would think parties like that don't last very long, but think again.

Then there is the cash cow that is leatherworking for highbies. Again, you either make a lot of cash, or none at all. The only middle ground is looting areas. Or you are big enough to run stuff on your own.

The economic problem in Icesus will probably best be handled by a player ruling body, as Solar suggested, because no solution can fix the problem as it stands, if minimum sales for items are not implemented, without harming the game as a whole.

[iluth]

Wear'n'tear is an solution that was made in several other muds.
Should it be done here? I don't know.

Just pointing out that caster guilds wouldn't ever damage their weapons or armour compared to some of us melee'ers.

I'm with Misrobo's idea of increasing the sac value for often underpriced items, if everybody already has a dagger of justice, the price inevitably has to fall. However almost everybody needs df, and since df is mostly sold at 1k per 1000 silver, I don't see any problems with making a large payment and buying a load of df in bulk.

[stalker]

The economic problem in Icesus will probably best be handled by a player ruling body, as Solar suggested, because no solution can fix the problem as it stands, if minimum sales for items are not implemented, without harming the game as a whole.

Regulating the markets of player-to-player equipment sales really, really does not make any sense. Of course you can, with intense monitoring, ensure that equipment is sold at a certain price, but this will cause more trouble than what benefits it brings. A simple mud economy respects the same principles of supply and demand as any other, and it is simply a fact that price regulation (when not applied to a natural monopoly) does not lead to the effective allocation of resources..

Now you ask, what does the effective allocation of resources have to do with a mud economy? As such, perhaps it may not have much, since resource production does not cost anything to the game and efficiency leads to more production and thus an earlier need for downtune.

However, a market economy, in addition to being without doubt the most effective in allocating resources correctly, also brings about other freedoms to players. Competition, for example, is inherent to the system. Learning to do certain eq-monsters brings about know-how that is best kept secret so that others cannot learn to do the same eq and thus add upon the supply-side of the market. Second, the freedom of choice. If the prices were regulated, you could not sell your certain piece of equipment for half the price even though you would desperately need the cash for example for a reinc (or buying a more expensive piece of equipment for that matter). I would not like seeing the possibility of a player to have autonomy on what to do with his/her equipment limited, as currently there are no limitations.

Furthermore, the benefits to counter the losses as described above do not incur throughout the player community as do the losses. The beneficiaries would be the ones in the cartel council, since they could decide on the appropriate price level. In fact, they would impose their will on others only for the sake of preventing inflation.

That being said, regulating prices is tackling the symptoms of a real problem, not the problem itself. The price of equipment does not fall unreasonably low in a free market economy if the supply and demand of equipment is balanced. Currently, as I see it, the equipment most rapidly losing value is due to repeated killing of the monster bearing this equipment. Lowering supplies will increase the prices on the products as the demand will still be the same. Then again, increasing demand through more rapid equipment wear'n'tear also balances the scales. As you can see, price regulation really isn't a part of the equation, if you wish to tackle the real problems.

My position on the subject of implementing a price cartel on equipment is therefore a definite no. I would rather turn the discussion on ways to balance the supply/demand -scale and end the discussion on price regulation, since it, in my opinion, is not the way to go about.

[dunn]

if the supply and demand of equipment is balanced. Currently, as I see it, the equipment most rapidly losing value is due to repeated killing of the monster bearing this equipment.

That was exactly the point of my first post, giving players a diversion to running the exact same areas and producing x2 the supply from it because they have no alternative means of producing a) or b). Cash/DF.

My original suggestion was fix outworld hunting, and restore undead DF to its original levels.. Ie, circlets 10k df, and so forth. Then no one would be interested in running the avian blade for df.. Turning it into another ratling rapier.. Keep the traffic dispersed into other areas of the mud for reasons a) and b) and that will accomplish all the points you mentioned.

There was a reason why it was skeleton lords with circlets were tuned so high, (I believe) to provide an unlimited and very appealing value to higher players tracking them down during nighttime. The same applies for hunting, give one shot bonuses that were decent so you would keep players out of exp areas.

Now, areas have to supply the whole player base with exp and df. It's no wonder the stuff gets shared as DF when you don't need so much of it.

If the above are not sufficient to solving the problem as you said, then I suggest other even better ways of diversifying the mud population (into more diverse and rewarding, things to do).

Currently, the only alternative if you're a tank, is taking part in a fun eq mob run. Otherwise, you can't hunt, you can't gather mushrooms, you can't make salves if you're not a ranger, or deplete your df fishing..

[solar]

I think that the answer does not lie in uptuning ow undeads.
People would still 'rape' Calluin and sleepy ratling, They're exp monsters with a small bonus... the df items. Also, since there would be more DF available the price would go EVEN LOWER, no thanks! I don't want to see newbies with 3x major stat blessings running wild...

And would hunting-fixing really help in any way? The way I see it, there are like... 0-2 active hunters in this mud... The same ones that were active before hunting-tunes and such... Since mounts were introduced to the game, the 'hunting' seems to consist of killing ow monsters, not actual 'hunting'.

[iluth]

This is a problem: DF items are less scarce than what they were before, yet people keep on selling them for the same inflatedly-low prices!

The real problem with DF items being so readily available is because of parties like this

| Party name: biib
| Members: Level: Idle for: Guild:
|
| Solar member 62 2s Shapeshifter
| Kraven leader 75 2s Shapeshifter
| Shalafi member 64 9m 58s Air Priest
| Balrum member 47 0s Shapeshifter

And

| Party name: o|O
| Members: Level: Idle for: Guild:
|
| Pjastor member 61 4s Shapeshifter
| Mazkaline member 40 2s Air Priest
| Etadan member 39 2s Mage
| Lipides member 49 6s Shapeshifter
| Regnad leader 62 2s Shapeshifter

Constantly redoing the same areas, and how will this problem likely be solved? not by getting to the real root of it which is people constantly raping the same thing over and over, but just by inventing some sort of tax that will likely just hit newbies the hardest and force them to drop a blessing or two just to wear the armour they bought off of the same highbies.

I do see where you're coming from solar, but you kind of are contributing to the problem, meanwhile people who just play this mud for fun like me, off in the outworld minding my own business are going to get tuned because of how party players like you guys operate, i find this pretty annoying.

[lipides]

I hope you take that back iluth BC we DID DO ONE DF ITEM ONLY and WE Are NOT selling them with low prices,dunno about kraven team!

And it we were just an example,be aware that some ppl really DO just exp running around 10 or more areas instead of 3-4 where one or two easy DF mobs are. and for myself, if i happen to win in dice i'll keep my DF or sac it myself,i sell only when i'm raelly low in money and i don't sell cheap!

[artic]

Exactly. Making things cost more and giving highbies the right to force their prices on everyone else is just making the game less interesting for newbies.

Instead lower supply. Make some 50 times per boot killed monsters once per boot only. Or make them drop more random items. EG- theres a list from witch normal mobs draw their items, right. Make another list with more powerful items- if a eq-monster spawns make it roll on wether he will get hes usual rape-eq or something completely random from that list. Might be a bit weaker item, but that only lowers the highbies appeal for that particular monster.

Example: dezzo might spawn and instead of getting hes usual knife that always costs him hes life, he might get some no-glow boots with considerable quality. This way hes lifespan would be a bit more, than the usual 30 seconds.

[iluth]

I hope you take that back iluth BC we DID DO ONE DF ITEM ONLY and WE Are NOT selling them with low prices,dunno about kraven team!

And it we were just an example,be aware that some ppl really DO just exp running around 10 or more areas instead of 3-4 where one or two easy DF mobs are. and for myself, if i happen to win in dice i'll keep my DF or sac it myself,i sell only when i'm raelly low in money and i don't sell cheap!

Yep you guys were just examples, don't take it personal. Templars and blasters pick up the middle sized eq which has saturated the market and is now selling dirt cheap, shifter parties do exp and pick up df items on their way too (at least ime)

But what i expect to happen is that when groups do pick up a df item (if that df tax to eq gets implemented) is that instead of selling the df they would just keep it for themselves, leaving newbies with even less df to use. I know for a fact that i'm just barely covering the few blessings i have, and that i'll need to sac all the df i come across rather than selling it.

[dunn]

I think that the answer does not lie in uptuning ow undeads.
People would still 'rape' Calluin and sleepy ratling, They're exp monsters with a small bonus... the df items. Also, since there would be more DF available the price would go EVEN LOWER, no thanks! I don't want to see newbies with 3x major stat blessings running wild...

And would hunting-fixing really help in any way? The way I see it, there are like... 0-2 active hunters in this mud... The same ones that were active before hunting-tunes and such... Since mounts were introduced to the game, the 'hunting' seems to consist of killing ow monsters, not actual 'hunting'.

I think you missed my point Solar, in that spreading out the "hot spots" would result in a more balanced surplus by spreading out quantity, NOT increasing it. It's basically making people run into each other less by not forcing them to HAVE to run so and so for DF. People cannot do two things at once.

They are either running around for df in the outworld, or raiding areas in mass for df. Take your pick.

You are only spreading out gameplay options and making the more profitable option, one to which newbies have almost zero access to, the more appealing option. (Lessening the stress on areas, and making less need to have blowing up dazhora rings, for one)

I for one have never seen newbies outbid themselves for a 10k df circlet, throwing around 100k bids.

There would technically not be MORE df available. This is gameplay mechanics. And in fact, gameplay mechanics are the problem here. Because the growth of Icesus hasn't been accounted for. The proof in that is that all we have to do is run around the same areas killing the same mobs, all the time.

By re-introducing outworld DF, since it would be limited to highbies who could actually run it, and leaving the current hotspots less frequented (by the same highbies), LESS df in the form items would fall into the hands of newbies. And -overall- you would not account for -more- df in the game.

Time/luck in finding a lord or something good would be the risk in the first place. It is certainly more challenging with a good lure in the form of that extra df, than checking on mob-so-and-so every 15 minutes. Not even a challenge there.

Most newbies will not even dream of spending 100k+ for a 10k df circlet that is not eq.

I'm really not seeing your persective on hunting, so I will stop right there. Hunting is just sad, period.

You are basically advocating having less things to do on the mud and constraining what we can -already- do, instead of looking at the bigger picture and trying to account for the factor of growth. Growth means you have to have multiple pipelines to divert that growth in order to maintain the same balance. (With proportional rewards)

With the hunting tune (no one hunts, yes) and the undead tune (circlets are cash now), 2 (!) crucial pipelines have been diverted to areas.

It's not only less fun, because we have less things to do, but it's starting to change the face of eq on icesus. Yes, Calluin may very well be df, but only to highbie parties. Get LESS highbie parties raiding areas because they don't have to (move them into the outworld for df) and you won't have the current overflow of items, whether for df or not!

Oh yes, and shifters used to be pretty good hunters. Make them an offer they can't refuse.
Restoring the outworld is a good case to make.

[solar]

because of parties like this

I do see where you're coming from solar, but you kind of are contributing to the problem, meanwhile people who just play this mud for fun like me, off in the outworld minding my own business are going to get tuned because of how party players like you guys operate, i find this pretty annoying.

I too play this mud for fun, and I'd like to keep it that way. And those 'parties' you mention just happen the be current trend:

While I don't think shapeshifters are _that_ cool (rangers, templars are the coolest), they just happen to be more cooler than monks (the other offtank guild), imho, and there's no denying that they can make braindead exp (several megs a day! Not that fun but the more exp this way, the faster I can try something more 'fun').

And I'm not the one who leads those parties, but the exping routine seems to have fixed on some areas: Actually it's something of a cycle... Start from shanty->highhill->vaerlon->harbor guards->stalker forest->avians->hilltown->broken oak->hideout->atherton/gnoll area->void->chrono/glacier/cfort/wyvernmine -> and start again...



Oh, And I'd like to thank everyone who has posted something regarding the topic, It has been really helpful and provided more than point of view.

[suron]

In the year 2000... (thats far into the future not past!)

Certain quest items ie calluins sword/galina necklace will be doable once per boot only...

In the year 2000... (thats it, sing it like they do on Conan O'Brien)

Certain other monsters who drop money eq, will then only drop them 25%-50% of the time...

In the year 2000...

The Great Ape form will be introduced to the ever growing Gaesati shapeshifters guild. Now featuring additional forms of praerie dog, turtle and the mighty sloth.

In the year 2000...

Newbies will complain no more to the wizards, since mighty Idles coded a new, improved version of communications methods which direct all whines to /dev/null.

In the year 2000...

Artic will still suck at making money... (no offence meant)

In the year 2000...

Sriel will still be exping like apeshit...

In the year 2000...

Things will get easier for newbies as everyone of them will be served one free meal at the soup kitchen, this is a one time offer only and noone bothers to inform them that soup was actually made from previous newbies.