Taxation, fees and other ways to get rid of money

[dyaros]

The merchants guild has attracted lots of interest, so it would be useful if we open a completely new topic about the subject, with concentration to how remove Icesus money from players (to stop the inflation...)

Here are few ideas:

Taxation:

Taxation is a "little" hard to put in use, but every player should be obligated to pay a tribute to the city they live in (ie. help upkeeping the city). What makes my idea a little different, is that it is NOT mandatory. Every player has his/her own responsibility to pay taxes within time (time could be shown in scores?). If not paid in time, player suffers reputation loss and also needs pay extra penalty fee. If player does not pay the taxes and the penalties in a long time, a NPC "tax evader" party starts looking for him. How it continues when the tax collectors catch the player, is another story...

Fees:

More fees should be added, also the transaction costs should be higher. Mere 150 silver transaction cost is extremely low, little too i am afraid. If the transfer fee rises more rabidly, to say around 1-2k (which is still quite tolerable), it would be significant sum of money that can be withdrawn from players every day. Here is a little chart of fees (first transferred sum, then the cost).

1 silver - 10k = 150 silver
10k - 50k = 800 silver
50k - 100k = 1500 silver
100k - 300k = 2000 silver
300k - 600k = 2500 silver
600k - 1,5M = 4000 silver
1,5M -> = 5000 silver

Ereport. This is something i must disagree in fees. It's good for lowbies to have that basic 5k cost, but then it rabidly rises to 20k and so-on, which doesn't really encourage players to use it.
It would be better if the ereport cost rises in smaller steps, like 5k for every 10M. Much more reasonable and also encourages players to use it (sometimes, but not too often ).

Resizing armours is quite good, no need to change the sums. But there could be a additional fee when resizing equipment which has over +3 in one stat (ie. like +3 con pants etc.)

Passage fee. This is something i have wanted for sometime now, but nobody really has liked the idea (not really a surprise). Anyway, a small fee should be paid when entering city perimeters if player has too low reputation. Nothing big here either, but should be dependent on the total exp worth of the player.

Automatic penalty fees for breaking laws. This is something i would keenly want to see. First pkill (for example) would only result a penalty ticket, which has to be paid within time (see taxation). If player continues to pkill and trash enviroment , the then penalties will become significantly severe.

I'll keep posting new ideas as i get them.

[cezar]

You very well know that suggesting more ways to drain money from players is going to elicit a lot of negative response, but I think the bank transfer fees are worth a special whine.
The idea would result in a huge burden on party sharing the sellable loot. According to your table, a party leader sharing 50k between 3 members will pay 9% tax. Yes, I know some leader prefer to only share the mithril in the first place, and stiff the party on 'small' change. But this being a friendly MUD I think we don't need more ways to encourage such practices.

I think the whole idea took the wrong direction. Instead of looking for ways to drain extra money for the sake of 'economy', we need more useful things for players to spend money on.

'Money is power' probably will not be implemented simply because Icesus is Icesus, tho it can certainly provide a perfect solution for people stockpiling money for the sake of ego.

Whatever happened to travelling merchants that had potions ? I know that the alchemists guild now allows players to create own potions, but it did not become a major part of the economy, 10 levels is probably a major cause of this. Besides, the topic we are discussing here is inflation, not player-interaction economy. If we want to balance the mud a bit, I think it is great to return merchants with mediocre sellable potions, retune alchemists to require may be 5 levels. NPC merchants can then provide mediocre stock, and player alchemists the better stuff.

Another part of the player based economy is df. Players who need money kill mobs with sellable df items, and the richer ones buy it. How about we skip the middleman and allow players to sacrifice money ? I know, I know, the idea may suck on two levels. First, it may party solve the inflation problem, but it takes away from player interaction. Second, some may think it is simply 'ungodly' in role-playing terms. But the idea may be tweaked. Instead of sacrificing money itself, we can have temple shop selling df items. This would actually improve player interaction, if the bargaining skill for merchants is tuned accordingly. Personally, I think 2 levels is too much for the sake of having an 11-slot booth, but with the bargaining skill actually becoming usefull, it is a whole new story.

And while on the topic, let me throw out this thought. What we are trying to balance here is inflation and problem of extra money in the game, versus artificial solutions destroying player-based economy. The idea is that higher level players provide to lower ones the services that they can't do on their own. Nameley, killing large eq mobs. What we need, is smaller players providing to the bigger once services as well, that bigger players simply can't be bothered with to do on their own, or invest levels to be able to do it. Eventually we may get the long-promised blacksmithing, get mining back, give players spells to recharge magical items. Perhaps, eventually, player-merchant just might become a viable option on its own. Until that day we need a band-aid solution.
One way to do it is to unify (for now) merchants and alchemists. Instead of everybody and their grandma having a large booth, allow a small booth at first 2-3 levels. Then, the players who want to squeeze more money out of player economy, can take more levels, stuff the booth with potions, make bargaining useful as per my second idea.

Well, that's all I have on the subject for now, feel free to critize/praise/promise to implement my ideas.

Cezar

[dunn]

Yet another well informed and thought out approach - tune the game because thread x has received y responses! Well done.

That thread has a lot of mixed feelings from players in it, regarding the game - things already tuned, lots of whining, and has covered various topics already because of that. A person starting a new one on the same topic is not needed.

Any ideas expressed are fine where they are. You want to post your ideas, do it in the same thread, don't start a new one. It's called common courtesy.
Move this to the merchant thread please.

[cezar]

Any ideas expressed are fine where they are. You want to post your ideas, do it in the same thread, don't start a new one. It's called common courtesy.
Move this to the merchant thread please.

It is my understanding that you can only make polls when starting new thread.

Yet another well informed and thought out approach - tune the game because thread x has received y responses! Well done.

I will assume that you are referring to Dyaros, none of my ideas were a straight up downtune.

That thread has a lot of mixed feelings from players in it, regarding the game - things already tuned, lots of whining, and has covered various topics already because of that. A person starting a new one on the same topic is not needed.

I just re-read the entire thread. It seems that it wondered off a long way from the original merchant council post. You know, sometimes it does make sense to start a new thread when the old one breaks down into 10 shouting matches on different topics. Frankly, it was not the orignal reason why I posted here, but looking back I am happy. Never wanted to post my ideas in the same thread with playerkilling for unique eqs.

[dyaros]

Yes, i started this post to discuss about the money, not eq. The merchant guild thread has grown too large, discussing so many subjects under one thread isn't really fruitful in terms of future.

Anyway, i agree with you Cezar about the combination of alchemists and merchant guilds. I would also like to see more specialized people around here, particularry in areas which can affect the virtual economy of Icesus. As you said, this way even smaller players can profit from larger players and not always vise versa.

Rather than just combine alchemists and merchants, it would be very useful to create one new guild - like a "workers guild", where you can join to subguilds like alchemists, merchants, miners, builders, smiths etc. This would bring the game new aspect and without a doubt would disperse the money more equally with the players.

About the transactions costs, i don't see that way. With the example you gave, transferring 50k to three players and spending 2400 silver to transactions costs isn't really much. Not for me atleast. The current 150 silver sum is equally to nothing. Uptuning transaction costs is just one of the ideas how to get rid of that money people have

[arkady]

I Think that the problem with inflation is not due too having too much money in the game but having too few eq monsters being runÂ… if you want to reduce the cost of items in the game make them less scarce. The quickest way to getting the cost of xxx item lower is to run itÂ’s monster as often as possibleÂ… finding ways to take money out of the game will only make the game more difficult for people starting outÂ… not reduce the cost of the items in question because their scarcity is what drives their prices not the abundance of money in the gameÂ… think about it supply and demand right now there are not all that many raptor plates in the game so their supply is very low and the demand is high (every def tank wants one)Â… so it fallows that the only way to reduce the price is to increase supplyÂ… not make money less commonÂ… really people I fell your pain at being too rich but donÂ’t take it out on all the people still really shocked when that have 100k in their bank accountsÂ…[/u]

[cezar]

Anyway, i agree with you Cezar about the combination of alchemists and merchant guilds. I would also like to see more specialized people around here, particularry in areas which can affect the virtual economy of Icesus. As you said, this way even smaller players can profit from larger players and not always vise versa.

Well, if you read carefully, I pretty much said that it is a temporary solution, until we have enough player abilities coded to create a distinct merchant class.

I suppose the main point of my post that we need a different approach to fixing the economy.
It seems to me that most posts from the merchant council thread concentrate on forcefully altering the free market. I am not going to philosophize about the benefits of free market economy. The idea has another flaw in my opinion. First we are going to figure out the right balance of money/df/eqs coming into the game. Then when new features are coded, such as new guilds allowing to better kill eq mobs, and the whole balance is thrown out of the window again.

Any MUD economy that is based on stockpiling resources until you have 'enough' will always eventually fail.

What we need is a player-interaction economy where money flows both ways. Eq flows down from highbies, money goes up. Services go up from low level players to highbies, money goes down. And throw in extra ways to usefully spend money, instead of taxation. I just mentioned potions and df because that is what's already in the game, but there is also lots of room for fresh new ideas.

Cezar

[dyaros]

Your words and wisdom makes me astounished

[dunn]

Yet another well informed and thought out approach - tune the game because thread x has received y responses! Well done.

I will assume that you are referring to Dyaros, none of my ideas were a straight up downtune.

I was referring to this:

The merchants guild has attracted lots of interest, so it would be useful if we open a completely new topic about the subject

This had nothing to do with a poll, but opening up a whole new subject in a different topic, instead of where people have already voiced their opinions. A topic like this is not only out of context but will serve little intelligent purpose in (re?)balancing the game, when things such as eq, overcrowding, and over abundance of a certain type of item are an issue.

What is the point of this.. Remove money, people are too rich? We don't get drained enough?

Post the ideas in the merchant thread - I believe Echcua would be delighted to hear them, since he is in charge of the non-hack and slash areas of the mud.. He has asked to, only a page back or so.

That's it, I'm done.
*shoves arkady back into the merchant thread*

[echcua]

Hmm it appears that the topic has been split... oh well. I am glad that some people have similar thinking than I do, ie. cezar. I don't think taxation is the answer as a) it is very negative b) it doesn't increase cash flow/interaction between players (my main goal)

I am not sure about the df side of things. I haven't really thought about it that much, as you may have noticed.

As to seeing any progress/changes, on my part active coding has been ceased for quite some time due to uni (dentistry is a very demanding course, as I am finding out) but as soon as the exams are over and I get back home I will be making serious headway into some coding again. Keep the ideas flowing though as I do check the forums and make note of good ideas. If you have any good ideas for sub-guilds that are non hack and slash please send them to echcua@hotail.com

[zaec]

The cash flow between players don't solve anything relating to the inflation. If money does not disappear anywhere from the game the economy is fucked. There are many basic problems why the economy is very hard to balance in Icesus.

The biggest problem is that money is just that secondary to exp, the rate of getting money must be high enough in order for players to be able to train. if a player really wants to make money he can just stop training skills and get level exp and instead of killing exp mobs he can sacrifice a bit from the expgain and kill money-mobs, he can start doing leatherworking on regens etc etc. It's really astounding how fast you can make few millions just by stopping your money outcome. How on earth there will ever be a stable economy when money gaining is this unstable.
In order to ever balance the economy, the money gaining should be MUCH, MUCH more steadier than now.

For example if with basic exping you would gain 1000currents
a day, by altering your gamestyle to gain more money you would yield to ~1500 currents per day. But with the current system on basic exping its 1000 and when you REALLY want to gain money you get it 20000 currents or something like that. Not very stable.

I've never liked the idea that skills cost money to train, instead a much more working system in my opinion would be that every time you get a guild level, you will permanently lose money.
The money SHOULD NOT be coordinated along the exp-gain of the players. After the money won't just stand for alternative exp we can start to figure out what things are really worth of.

Mount and real estate taxation, higher fees to the city gates(especially for foreigners) and such are quite good ways to get rid of that money coming to the game from all directions.

Of course we need features that allows the players to spend money to something that they can actually get something in return like player houses, player towns and such. At the moment there is no catastrophic problems concerning the money because the only thing you have to pursuit is more exp. But when the player smiths, merchants, miners, housebuilders and such come into the game they really need a more stable economy if they are to give players something else to reach for instead of exp. What's the point to play a character who gains money that's really not worth much and its value is so unstable?

I know that I have not thought this difficult issue from all aspects so this thread is excellent for this discussion. And let's keep the eq-sales and things concerning eq-balance away from this conversation except from the parts they concern the money in Icesus, ok? Just to stay in the correct subject =)

[cezar]

The cash flow between players don't solve anything relating to the inflation. If money does not disappear anywhere from the game the economy is fucked. There are many basic problems why the economy is very hard to balance in Icesus.

Well, that why I thought of my ideas more as a two-prong solution. Making money harder to get and increased taxation will simply land the noobs with the raw end of the deal. Allowing more ways to meaningfully spend money will leave noobs with hardly any benefit, cash flowing up and spent by the highbies. But, I think, you are taking my ideas (if you are referring to my ideas at all) out of context. I never suggested that cash flowing both ways will solve the problem all by itself. It also has to be spent, and _meaningfully_ spent instead of taxed, and most importantly, spent at all levels, instead of lvl80+. But the next one is where I totally disagree with you.

Of course we need features that allows the players to spend money to something that they can actually get something in return like player houses, player towns and such.

No, no and no. When Mila comes unfrozen, she will buy a player city. Now what ? Creating more one-time expenditures will solve nothing. The correct approach is ongoing expenses, similar to the way df works. Of course, player run towns are a nice idea and I sincerely hope it will be implemented eventually. But this bears no relevance on the topic. Come to think of, I sound a bit harsh. Please, do create those nice features. Just don't hope they will solve anything. Have player cities ? Allow permanent rifts that cost money to enter. Shops in the player cities ? That is actually a huge part of the problem. We have shops that are basically used to sell loot. And nothing is ever bought from NPCs, save for torches and simple trinkets. Instead of NPC shops being a faceless money generator, we need them to sell something as well. I hate to regurgitate df and npc merchant potions idea for the third time... but well, I just did.

How on earth there will ever be a stable economy when money gaining is this unstable.
In order to ever balance the economy, the money gaining should be MUCH, MUCH more steadier than now.

Well, we could jam the money income and pretend it is a solution. Or, we could have a stable economy where players choose to make as much as they want, and then spend as much as they want, which is hardly the case right now.

I've never liked the idea that skills cost money to train, instead a much more working system in my opinion would be that every time you get a guild level, you will permanently lose money.

Mount and real estate taxation, higher fees to the city gates(especially for foreigners) and such are quite good ways to get rid of that money coming to the game from all directions.

I hate to state the obvious, but Icesus does not provide me with health plan or pension. Why do we need taxes anyway ? From the gameplay point of view, extra taxation is not in any way different from simply tuning monsters to reduce income in the first place.
I will rephrase one of my previous ideas one more time. Instead of trying to balance eq/df/money/exp income, allow more options for expenditure. Players will take care of the balance.

Cezar

[zaec]

But, I think, you are taking my ideas (if you are referring to my ideas at all) out of context.

No, I was only talking about my own ideas.

No, no and no. When Mila comes unfrozen, she will buy a player city. Now what ? Creating more one-time expenditures will solve nothing.

How long do you think he will be able to pay taxes for each room in his city when taxes cumulate room after another.

we could have a stable economy where players choose to make as much as they want, and then spend as much as they want

well that sounds like a solution indeed!
=DDDDDDDDD

I hate to state the obvious, but Icesus does not provide me with health plan or pension. Why do we need taxes anyway ? From the gameplay point of view, extra taxation is not in any way different from simply tuning monsters to reduce income in the first place.
I will rephrase one of my previous ideas one more time. Instead of trying to balance eq/df/money/exp income, allow more options for expenditure. Players will take care of the balance.

Yes, I hate that too. You make it sound so simple, but I will make it more clearer: There are so many loose variables in the whole equation that "simply tuning monsters" does not solve the issue. Is it so hard to understand that when the money income is totally unbalanced and out of control, there will never be any balance in the economy, even if you add a dozen things where players can spend their money to. I don't think that there is a problem in icesus that you don't have enough places where to spend your money.

And of course, when money income is tuned, the outcome is also tuned, you must not have been thinking that only the income would be tuned?

Players will take care of the balance.

No they won't.

[cezar]

Well, in your previous post you were happy we got a discussion going. How about we keep it going ? And with real conversation instead of exchanging sarcatic remarks.

How long do you think he will be able to pay taxes for each room in his city when taxes cumulate room after another.

Ok, I'll give you that one, I don't know how are you planning to implement player cities. If the idea is only to have 2-3, run by superhighbies and cohorte, then I suppose huge taxations sounds about right.

we could have a stable economy where players choose to make as much as they want, and then spend as much as they want

well that sounds like a solution indeed!
=DDDDDDDDD

I was very happy that you approved of my idea until I detected a slightest note of sarcasm

Players will take care of the balance.

No they won't.

Would you care to elaborate ? But let me throw this one out first. How come we don't have a thread about the problem of df overflowing icesus ? I think it is because df works precisely in the way I suggest money should. Do you think differently ?

Yes, I hate that too. You make it sound so simple, but I will make it more clearer: There are so many loose variables in the whole equation that "simply tuning monsters" does not solve the issue. Is it so hard to understand that when the money income is totally unbalanced and out of control, there will never be any balance in the economy, even if you add a dozen things where players can spend their money to. I don't think that there is a problem in icesus that you don't have enough places where to spend your money.

Yes, it is very hard for me to understand exactly out of whose control is it, and why there must be a designated equiation balancer. Did someone manage a good balance of df that stood the test of time, or is the whole concept implemented differently ?

What is money anyway ? Exp - well, that a goal. Df is a resource. Equipment - means of production, but that falls in resource category as well. Where does money stand ? For newbs it is definitely a resource. But there are many others for whom it a statement of dicksize. Yes, in my childish naivity I continue to believe that no matter how hard you tweak money production/taxation, making it a resource is the answer.

Cezar

[apex]

Ok! It's been too long since Apex has made a player-run-clan plug..so.... here it is!!!!

Another problem somewhat solved! create player-run clans! A 'clan' can be a sort of player-run guild, except it does not deal in exp, and does not give levels. A clan would be a fairly flexible thing... with X money(x being a lot, think buying your own channel, adn then some, because it WOULD require you're own channel), you would get a room somewhere, a channel, and some sort of generic-every-day item that basically serves as a command-one for your clan. The clan-leader(founder) could then basically form his own clan, dishing out titles, certain (pretty uselss, but contributive and fun) skillls and spells, and even clan items. The catch: each of these abilities cost a disgusting amount of money. (rooms na dsuch sohuld also be addable with an amount of money). As before stated, the guild-leader item would let him set up the guild (add players, boot players, etc.), and money, and petition could be sent ti a wiz to add the other features... An upkeep cost would be necessary to keep the clan running.

Ok.. why does that have anything to do with this thread? Well, besides the obvious extensive money-drain this would facilitate, taking loads of money from the game (seemingly a goal now among highbies), it would encourage player- cooperation... within clans more than anything. So those highbies that are really bent on increasing the prices of their dazhora rings and slayer rings and whatnot could, theoretically, use their clans as cartels. require X minimum price on said items, or forfeiture of membership.
This would also be a way to promote inter-clan positive relationships.

Another feature of the player-run clan that could or could not be implemented... player killing! clan-wars sound fun don't they? Cities as safe zones, but everywhere else, warring clans be aggro with eachother? It'd be an easy way to implement some sort of pkable flag,without the flag- if that is desired by anyone.

If you're looking for more player interaction, i don't think there is a better way to do it.