I'm just curious. Seems people just want more and more masteries. I personnally don't like them very much. Exp is for training and knowing skills, and when you reinc you can't get masteries which are your skills also. I don't see the point.
I see this as a step toward a game without reincing. At least it prevents me from trying out new guilds as I need to do several houndred megs of exp just to get masteries up first. And we see lots of people sticking to a guild as they have masteries there. (If you ask them, they will probably say it's because they like the guild, but hey...have they even tried others?)
I'm not asking for anyone to change anything, as people seem happy as things are. Just curious if there is anyone else out there who would like to see masteries removed.
Do you like masteries?
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solar
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Some of the guilds have great masteries - not always the kind that give noticeable +exprate one way or another, but then there are (or have been) guilds that got masteries just because other guilds had them, too - with little thinking involved (as it seems to me).
Masteries should be something that the coder/designer has really brainstormed about, and not always "OMG THE SKILL DEALT 2X THE NORMAL DAMAGE!!!!" or something as predictable.
Also, a mastery that has only one visible special that can occur once in a blue moon is not very cool. As your mastery nears milestones such as 50%, 75% and 100% (if using percentual system) it should IMHO open some new and fancy special (not necessarily that useful) that starts to improve as your mastery raises... you know, something that feels like a reward for all that time you've spent playing that guild.
I see masteries as one third of a complete guild, if they haven't been done well enough, the guild has this lacking feel about it. :(
I really have to give thumbs up to Galiere for his exemplary guilds and their stylish masteries.
Masteries should be something that the coder/designer has really brainstormed about, and not always "OMG THE SKILL DEALT 2X THE NORMAL DAMAGE!!!!" or something as predictable.
Also, a mastery that has only one visible special that can occur once in a blue moon is not very cool. As your mastery nears milestones such as 50%, 75% and 100% (if using percentual system) it should IMHO open some new and fancy special (not necessarily that useful) that starts to improve as your mastery raises... you know, something that feels like a reward for all that time you've spent playing that guild.
I see masteries as one third of a complete guild, if they haven't been done well enough, the guild has this lacking feel about it. :(
I really have to give thumbs up to Galiere for his exemplary guilds and their stylish masteries.
Last edited by solar on Mon Sep 05, 2005 15:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Internet tough guy
Icesus is not just my life - it's the lack of it.
Icesus is not just my life - it's the lack of it.
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artic
- Supporting Member 2005
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A world without reincing... Hmm, wouldnÂ’t that be fun. I think reinc should only be used by newbies. Because all guilds are different, people currently use reinc just to get to a guild that is more powerful at their current level. 20 levels of army, than quick reinc to a mage, gain 10 more levels there, than im most powerful in Shdowdancers, than after another 10-15 im good for earth priests and than i can hop over to the uber-power Sorces. I think this is wrong.
Yeah sure i have reinced like 20-25 times i have tried all guilds just to find the one i like the most. Thats the second use for reinc, to find a guild that suits u the most. And i think once u find the guild u like the most u really shouldnÂ’t reinc any more.
Attacking a air-priest and discovering he has magically tuned into a templar is not funny.
Although i do agree that some of the masteries are stupid - u will get one critical per month after having spent 3 months in this guild, etc - I still am on the opinion that masteries are a good thing cause they keep people from reincing.
Now, what masteries would be non-stupid:
*mastery that gives u new options - after striking for several years (strike mastery has gone up considerably) and becoming a master at using axes (axe mastery has gone up considerably) u have discovered a new way of striking that will attempt to cleave the opponents limbs right off. *ARghaarah! Gee, Artic, aiming at the lizardsÂ’ tail was quite effective.*
*Moderate critical moderately often at moderate mastery levels- good example in my experience was swarm mastery for mages. Even at low % it happened with quite nice frequency, although it wasnÂ’t very powerful it was still fun to look at.
Yeah sure i have reinced like 20-25 times i have tried all guilds just to find the one i like the most. Thats the second use for reinc, to find a guild that suits u the most. And i think once u find the guild u like the most u really shouldnÂ’t reinc any more.
Attacking a air-priest and discovering he has magically tuned into a templar is not funny.
Although i do agree that some of the masteries are stupid - u will get one critical per month after having spent 3 months in this guild, etc - I still am on the opinion that masteries are a good thing cause they keep people from reincing.
Now, what masteries would be non-stupid:
*mastery that gives u new options - after striking for several years (strike mastery has gone up considerably) and becoming a master at using axes (axe mastery has gone up considerably) u have discovered a new way of striking that will attempt to cleave the opponents limbs right off. *ARghaarah! Gee, Artic, aiming at the lizardsÂ’ tail was quite effective.*
*Moderate critical moderately often at moderate mastery levels- good example in my experience was swarm mastery for mages. Even at low % it happened with quite nice frequency, although it wasnÂ’t very powerful it was still fun to look at.
Some of the guilds are entirely screwed up - like the templars. You can spend days and days playing and not a measly letter lights up in gained masteries. You could better use that play time and put it into a guild where those masteries actually move.
This was done of course because a templar with mastery bonus is too powerful, but at this point I believe the whole guild has become screwed up and de-structured. People have lost the point in tuning it, and it's not so much fun to play it. One of the reasons I don't play Icesus as much.
Take the guild off, recode it with fresh specs (by comparing it to the new militia), actually allow more than 5 races to play it, and let those masteries move a little.
By comparing it to the new militia I mean, take the part that we can't get with skills and instead rely on spells and balance those out. Then feel free to give masteries to the guild, free bonds and actual spells that haven't been butchered through the years. Like the shield spells. Martyr shields of -element. Now useless. Can't protect people from phys anymore except with an ac bonus that drops their dex by miles. (And does quite a scene on your bonds too)
You can't have party defensive templars anymore, because they can hardly keep their own defensive and offensive spells on, and that's for the old templars. Newbie templars can't move 2 steps with all needed spells on.
Why I don't play another guild? Because I've spent more than 2 years in this guild and I'm sad to see it go down like this.
And I disagree by making element sequencer local only, there were lots of possibilities to using at at a player anywhere, and it was only when divine rain was discovered to be bugged that it was finally taken off. I understand there could have been other problems too, but there was no effort in fixing the problem, just that feature removed. And after that, the tunes just kept rolling in, so it hardly helped, just made the guild less fun.
If you command the elements, they are everywhere, you should be able to cast on other players no matter where they are. But, I'm talking nonsense, because the old element shield of earth is gone, and no one wants a shield on them because they might drown instead. But anyhow, byebye to the only useful use of martyr shields.
Cut, cut, cut, and what do you have? A 'templar' guild with 3 main branches (and maybe 1 new spell per branch, with the main effect of having all the other skills which were archnights, lesser for those branches or cut at all), butchered bonds, impossible masteries and a few useless spells. So you're left with preceptor or avatar if you want to move on from a rather cheap version of an old archnight (now in only elf, human or centaur form). Preceptors are jack of all trades, and avatars are a brick wall that make air priests look like solo machines.
Of course no one plays avatars, because no one will stand around for hours to wait on a party that will take such a def. Yes, eq parties, but unless you are specifically part of one, this option is not for everyone.
The most fun for players is guild experimentation and seeing what combo maximizes a skill the most. If there aren't enough negative aspects to balance it out, then you've coded the guild wrong. Don't allow 5 races to play it. (Because the big ones just hit too hard - but don't tell anyone, only the good races are allowed to join our guild, well some of them, anyway. Ok, then I'll play a brogh mage, does that mean I'll rock too? No, it's because the spells didn't rely enough on wisdom, but boosted like mad through masteries. What could be added is, specular masteries, that means bonuses that are filtered through the main attribute for each skill/spell instead of the linear way of stacking everything.)
You have lots of wisdom, then you'll benefit the most from compassion (spell related), and have less natural ability. Or if you prefer, more natural ability (different race), and less bonus from compassion. Meaning, only very wise races will get a full bonus to their spells from their spells mastery (compassion), but all would be able to utilize some. This should be based on the actual training cost, not how much actual wisdom you have.
If this works, free up the bonds a little bit. Give people the option of protecting their party members more.
Armourplate is stupid, give us back the old elemental shield of earth. And the feature to cast it at a distance on people, because like I said, no one cares for a shield that protects vs asphyxiation. Let shield of faith just protect against major crits, not make it the end and beginning of all.
Then fair masteries, like every other guild, that shouldn't be stuck when you get to the 50% margin. I should mention, that most of the tunes were based on ONE player that achieved very high masteries playing the guild since/or through its testing stage. That means the guild should have been taken down and tuned in an effective manner, since it's obvious it should never have been able to handle such big numbers. Not have its format changed or features removed, and making it a hassle to play.
If it was never balanced in the first place, why ruin its original concept.
The same applies for epriests. Some of us loved its concept, and that's what should have been kept (having a whole party of minions).
But yeah, I won't comment on masteries, because my guild is messed up! I don't even wanna hear about masteries, and I wouldn't mind if you removed them. It seems a templar with masteries is just impossible to "keep in check".
This was done of course because a templar with mastery bonus is too powerful, but at this point I believe the whole guild has become screwed up and de-structured. People have lost the point in tuning it, and it's not so much fun to play it. One of the reasons I don't play Icesus as much.
Take the guild off, recode it with fresh specs (by comparing it to the new militia), actually allow more than 5 races to play it, and let those masteries move a little.
By comparing it to the new militia I mean, take the part that we can't get with skills and instead rely on spells and balance those out. Then feel free to give masteries to the guild, free bonds and actual spells that haven't been butchered through the years. Like the shield spells. Martyr shields of -element. Now useless. Can't protect people from phys anymore except with an ac bonus that drops their dex by miles. (And does quite a scene on your bonds too)
You can't have party defensive templars anymore, because they can hardly keep their own defensive and offensive spells on, and that's for the old templars. Newbie templars can't move 2 steps with all needed spells on.
Why I don't play another guild? Because I've spent more than 2 years in this guild and I'm sad to see it go down like this.
And I disagree by making element sequencer local only, there were lots of possibilities to using at at a player anywhere, and it was only when divine rain was discovered to be bugged that it was finally taken off. I understand there could have been other problems too, but there was no effort in fixing the problem, just that feature removed. And after that, the tunes just kept rolling in, so it hardly helped, just made the guild less fun.
If you command the elements, they are everywhere, you should be able to cast on other players no matter where they are. But, I'm talking nonsense, because the old element shield of earth is gone, and no one wants a shield on them because they might drown instead. But anyhow, byebye to the only useful use of martyr shields.
Cut, cut, cut, and what do you have? A 'templar' guild with 3 main branches (and maybe 1 new spell per branch, with the main effect of having all the other skills which were archnights, lesser for those branches or cut at all), butchered bonds, impossible masteries and a few useless spells. So you're left with preceptor or avatar if you want to move on from a rather cheap version of an old archnight (now in only elf, human or centaur form). Preceptors are jack of all trades, and avatars are a brick wall that make air priests look like solo machines.
Of course no one plays avatars, because no one will stand around for hours to wait on a party that will take such a def. Yes, eq parties, but unless you are specifically part of one, this option is not for everyone.
The most fun for players is guild experimentation and seeing what combo maximizes a skill the most. If there aren't enough negative aspects to balance it out, then you've coded the guild wrong. Don't allow 5 races to play it. (Because the big ones just hit too hard - but don't tell anyone, only the good races are allowed to join our guild, well some of them, anyway. Ok, then I'll play a brogh mage, does that mean I'll rock too? No, it's because the spells didn't rely enough on wisdom, but boosted like mad through masteries. What could be added is, specular masteries, that means bonuses that are filtered through the main attribute for each skill/spell instead of the linear way of stacking everything.)
You have lots of wisdom, then you'll benefit the most from compassion (spell related), and have less natural ability. Or if you prefer, more natural ability (different race), and less bonus from compassion. Meaning, only very wise races will get a full bonus to their spells from their spells mastery (compassion), but all would be able to utilize some. This should be based on the actual training cost, not how much actual wisdom you have.
If this works, free up the bonds a little bit. Give people the option of protecting their party members more.
Armourplate is stupid, give us back the old elemental shield of earth. And the feature to cast it at a distance on people, because like I said, no one cares for a shield that protects vs asphyxiation. Let shield of faith just protect against major crits, not make it the end and beginning of all.
Then fair masteries, like every other guild, that shouldn't be stuck when you get to the 50% margin. I should mention, that most of the tunes were based on ONE player that achieved very high masteries playing the guild since/or through its testing stage. That means the guild should have been taken down and tuned in an effective manner, since it's obvious it should never have been able to handle such big numbers. Not have its format changed or features removed, and making it a hassle to play.
If it was never balanced in the first place, why ruin its original concept.
The same applies for epriests. Some of us loved its concept, and that's what should have been kept (having a whole party of minions).
But yeah, I won't comment on masteries, because my guild is messed up! I don't even wanna hear about masteries, and I wouldn't mind if you removed them. It seems a templar with masteries is just impossible to "keep in check".
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solar
- Supporting Member 2020
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- Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 17:30 pm
- Location: Kalajoki/Oulu, Finland
WTF
Dude, - What the _hell_?!dunn wrote:Some of the guilds are entirely screwed up - like the templars. You can spend days and days playing and not a
----- 8< SNAP! -----
wouldn't mind if you removed them. It seems a templar with masteries is just impossible to "keep in check".
Seriously, now... I have yet to read a post that contains more bs than that, imho...While I haven't been a templar in the last few months - things could not have possibly changed that much without mud-wide announcement, so my knowledge might be only slightly outdated.
(Templars have already been recoded once.)
Only thing that I agree on is that honour virtue could raise a bit more faster for players with higher totals than it does currently.
Internet tough guy
Icesus is not just my life - it's the lack of it.
Icesus is not just my life - it's the lack of it.
That's some active playing you are refering to...decent masteries withing a week...shees...Seriously, all guilds are playable without any masteries and you get decent amount of masteries with a week of active playing.
And define playable. Doesn't take a genius to differ between a psionicist with masteries and one with none. But you are right...air priests really don't need masteries to work. In fact, it's more like a christmas present when the mastery hits and when it does, no-one notices it.
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artic
- Supporting Member 2005
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- Location: Tallinn, Estonia
I belive Tamplar masteries are hard to raise cause they have special conditions, unlike other guilds. For Shadowdancers, its just 'Fight!, and yur masterries will raise' for air-preists its 'Heal, and your masteries will raise' but for Templars its 'have a newbie in your group and this mastery will raise'. So if u just Kill, kill kill, u might not see all masteries raising. And Dont expect masteries to raise while idling, that just wont happen. I tried.
Play time: 5 weeks 4 daysdrowsy wrote:air priests really don't need masteries to work. In fact, it's more like a christmas present when the mastery hits and when it does, no-one notices it.
still 3 masteries under 10%
knowlegde of serentiy: 5%
knowledge of the offensive path: 8% (This on is because I rarely do offensive spells, though, so I dont really think it's a slow mastery)
secret of cleansing: 3%<learning>
No, I'm not whining about slow masteries. I am actually quite happy with my abilities as an airpriest for my level. secrets of cleansing is low because most party members in the higher levels dont care about being cured of poison, so I rarely get to do that in a party. So I suppose the only naturally slow mastery would be knowledge of serenity, which if I recall just helps with meditation? That's not higly important, as I regen faster then most people anyways....
*Knowledge of serenity*
A priest who is highly skilled in this mastery is able to create relaxing atmosphere that makes it easier for patients and other people to regenerate their wounds, health or mental strength. This mastery helps you also with incenses.
Not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure that this mastery gives everyone in the room/party extra ticks every now and then.
Smaller ticks but higher mastery should boost them up.
A priest who is highly skilled in this mastery is able to create relaxing atmosphere that makes it easier for patients and other people to regenerate their wounds, health or mental strength. This mastery helps you also with incenses.
Not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure that this mastery gives everyone in the room/party extra ticks every now and then.
Smaller ticks but higher mastery should boost them up.
I don't think Dunn is being all that unreasonable.. for someone that has actually dedicated himself to a guild for the extent of his stay on icesus (big commitment) it must be depressing to see your guild downtuned again, and again...
What's wrong with being uber-freaking-good if you stay with the same guild for years and years anyway? Does it need to be downtuned? Haven't you sort of 'earned' your way?
What's wrong with being uber-freaking-good if you stay with the same guild for years and years anyway? Does it need to be downtuned? Haven't you sort of 'earned' your way?
... big one ... gotta hurt ... ouch